Understanding roulette ball jumps


#1

This is data collected on one of Cammegh roulette wheels. The blue line represents an average. Without much detail if I look above the line ad pick the point to play 9 pockets sector it may be around 21-22. Only area above blue lie can produce an advantage. Since it is much smaller than the bottom part the advantage can’t be big.
If looking 9 pockets sector the best positioned it may be 3.7 hits, but the average is 2.8 so the difference is only about 25%. It means if the player predicts the drop point perfectly the advantage would be 25%.

Because the data was collected with roulette computer together with rotor speed, I separated data to slower and faster ball.
Blue lines represent slower ball then 7p/s averaging at 5.6p/s and the orange data is faster ball averaged at 8.3p/s.
It is obvious that the difference of 2.7p/s makes significant influence on the balls behaviour.
The slow ball jumps mostly 22 pocket while the faster ball has wider distribution, you can see some picks at 9 pockets and at19.

If looking blue data, slow rotor playing around 22 may produce 2.2 hits. Because it is fewer spins the average is 1.3. This increased the possible advantage to 40% and even faster rotor can have ~25.
Sure here is a sharp border at 7p/s but with proper software analyzing we ca get a bit more.
It is interesting here that rotor that spins 4.5s per rotation is already fast when compared to 6.5s rotor and it makes such change on results.


How it looks in relationship to rotor speed.


#2

Looking this topic and do not get it. How this data was taken? It says with computer, but how?
Is it data on same diamond or different diamonds? How strong is a tilt ? Where is timing information on this chart? Looks like data is taken to the same basket whatever happens. It’s a very wrong way of taking scatter. If we follow such a " data" , there is a very strong possibility to loose money.


#3

Hello

Forester as you mentioned ı also observed that with cammegh wheel especially slower than 7 p/s rotor speed, scatter is around +20 to +26…and faster rotor ıt has much wider distrubition but again mostly around +18…

But my own experience ı focused on new questions…
first why with faster rotor there has been much wider scatter distrubition? ı thınk the reason is when rotor is faster there is much probability that ball can hit the pocket seperators and go suddenly back even if the ball has got energy to settle down in the far…how about your opinions?

the second is scatter also differs with the style of throwing the ball.sometimes ı guess that croupiers throws the ball not standartly.you can thınk like a tennis ball.ıf you hit the ball “slice” then when ıt hıts the ground ıt will bounce erratic.with my experince ı guess it is the same when croupier throws the ball with a somewhat “slice” technic, this ball will mostly spin back when it enters ın the rotor.

what do you thınk about this??

regards…


#4

[quote=“psikoanalist”]first why with faster rotor there has been much wider scatter distrubition? ı thınk the reason is when rotor is faster there is much probability that ball can hit the pocket seperators and go suddenly back even if the ball has got energy to settle down in the far…how about your opinions?[/quote]
First sentence is not right - usually when faster rotor distributtion is oposite - less.

But that not depends direct on wheel speed - more it depends on orbit or angle in which ball touch rotor - more sharp angle - wider distributtion




#5

[quote=“psikoanalist”]
ı thınk the reason is when rotor is faster there is much probability that ball can hit the pocket seperators and go suddenly back even if the ball has got energy to settle down in the far…how about your opinions?

[/quote]

That is what is happening, more often, but the dividers are low profile that is why the ball can go and roll so much across. Once it rolls it goes in ~horizontal position and dividers are far below centre of the ball. That is why it can roll across many of them.
On every wheel in general, when the ball is rolling with increased rotor speed it rolls longer.
If the rotor doesn’t move the jumps have the best scatter.

“the second is scatter also differs with the style of throwing the ball.sometimes ı guess that croupiers throws the ball not standartly.you can thınk like a tennis ball.ıf you hit the ball “slice” then when ıt hıts the ground ıt will bounce erratic.with my experince ı guess it is the same when croupier throws the ball with a somewhat “slice” technic, this ball will mostly spin back when it enters ın the rotor.”


I don’t believe in that, the ball during the spin few times changes the orbit, it would be hard to have any additional spinning which would affect jumps. Even with strong spinning it wouldn’t have much difference since the surfaces are relatively smooth.

#6

First sentence is not right - usually when faster rotor distributtion is oposite - less.

But that not depends direct on wheel speed - more it depends on orbit or angle in which ball touch rotor - more sharp angle - wider distributtion

[img width=600 height=480]http://i67.tinypic.com/jjkwvc.jpg[/img]





The ball angle depends on where the ball hits the diamond, it isnt related with the rotor speed.thınk about the sharpness of the angle is same in two different rotor speed?in which rotor speed ball bounces more erratically???

#7

[quote=“psikoanalist”]thınk about the sharpness of the angle is same in two different rotor speed?in which rotor speed ball bounces more erratically???[/quote]
Starting point for that is that ball speed vector is say in front and wheel speed vector is backward . So if we will increase wheel speed then total vector will become smaller . That is physick and that mean that contact speed is smaller, when wheel speed is bigger.
So after fall on faster wheel ball have less energy and because of that can less pover for scatering.

But all that is totally not related with winings and lossing .
We play with aim to win isnt ?

So scatering can be good also on fast rotor also on slow rotor , and can be bad on them so we never can say that 10 sec/rot wheel is better than 5 sec / rot wheel .
Usually very slow rotor have not very predictable scatering. But that is not rule.
And at all scatering lenghth is not main …


#8

Guys

What Forester says is correct.

The low frets cause the scatter to be wider than say on a John Huxley wheel at the same speed.

Also the slice or backspin by the Croupier when releasing the ball affects the speed of the ball on the track for several revolutions but generally by about revolution number 4 or 5 the ball has stopped “skidding” and begins to roll normally and so that does not affect the scatter once the ball strikes the rotor.

The one important thing you haven’t mentioned though is the Ball. There is a significant difference in bounce and scatter with different balls. More with small hard balls and less with large soft balls as a general rule.

Mike.


#9

[quote=“mikemcbain”]Also the slice or backspin by the Croupier when releasing the ball affects the speed of the ball on the track for several revolutions but generally by about revolution number 4 or 5 the ball has stopped “skidding” and begins to roll normally[/quote]
That is absolutelly not right, somewhere in forum are video 300 fr/sec where everybody can look and see that no matter how dealer throw, initial 4-10 rotattions can be very analogical in speed no matter that is sliding or back spin and all effect is especially in the end or say in the middle of spin.
In other words we can clock many rotattions till 1000 speed and detect 1000 posittion very good, but still not know what will be after. And all that is because diferent types of throws.

About that was much discussions in other places, without reaching any soluttion and leaving play only acordingly some statistick.
Ball scatering predicttion is very related with ball falling point predicttion. But because we even ball predict only so so, about predicting scatering in concrete spin are no chances at all.


#10

BB

Sorry but you did not understand my post correctly.

I said that backspin and skidding only affects the speed of the ball for the first 4 or max 5 revolutions. After that it makes no difference as you say.

Would be good if you locate that video you speak of and refresh us all on this matter, including what happens from ball revolution 4 - 10 as you indicate.

You say Ball scatering predicttion is very related with ball falling point predicttion. but that is also absolutely NOT RIGHT because it does not matter where we predict the falling point when we talk about Bounce & Scatter we are talking about the distance from our predicted falling point no matter where on the wheel it is.

The angle of falling ball and the height of the frets affect the Bounce & Scatter BUT the size and composition of the Ball itself has the greatest effect on the Bounce & Scatter distance.

Mike.


#11

[quote=“mikemcbain”]BB

Sorry but you did not understand my post correctly.

I said that backspin and skidding only affects the speed of the ball for the first 4 or max 5 revolutions. After that it makes no difference as you say.
[/quote]
I not know how to understand other - you say that if spin will have 20 rotattions then first 5 will be somehow efected and last 15 will be not efected ?

If will be such, then nobody will talk about these different types of spins, but pitty - you are not right .

If dealer throw ball other - ball is effected to very end of spin and in place where you measure ball it is efected.

And if you not know features of concrete spin - your posibilities to predict good, are very pure…


[quote=“mikemcbain”]Would be good if you locate that video you speak of and refresh us all on this matter, including what happens from ball revolution 4 - 10 as you indicate.[/quote]

Here you must ask Don amon.

[quote=“mikemcbain”]You say Ball scatering predicttion is very related with ball falling point predicttion. but that is also absolutely NOT RIGHT because it does not matter where we predict the falling point when we talk about Bounce & Scatter we are talking about the distance from our predicted falling point no matter where on the wheel it is.[/quote]

You can think as you want, for me that is without diference. Somehow peoples want to believe in what is not true …

[quote=“mikemcbain”]Scatter we are talking about the distance from our predicted falling point no matter where on the wheel it is.[/quote]
Scatering is distance from first toutch ball and wheel till ball will rest in pocket :slight_smile:

Imagine, that tilt is huge and 12 DD possition is higer than 6DD by 10 centimeters.

Maybe now will be clear for you, that no matter where ball will hit it will scater after hit in directtion of 6 DD and that can be in front or to back depending of ball hiting possittion … So scatering directtion and distance very depends on point where ball hited and if you predict right - also from predicttion.

If you predict bad of course, your predicttion not related with scatering.

[quote=“mikemcbain”]The angle of falling ball and the height of the frets affect the Bounce & Scatter BUT the size and composition of the Ball itself has the greatest effect on the Bounce & Scatter distance.[/quote]

Size and composition is stable so how that effect - that effect is always the same. Angle in every spin is different…

Problems create not ball color, weight, or composition , so not stable and known values, - problems creates what we not know. That is spin type, falling angle, possition of fret where ball do first and second touchs when fall…

And these problems , tasks , nobody even try to solve. maybe even not think about them.
All play acordingly some statistick, how collect and calculate it - usually also not have good understanding…


#12

Funny things are going on with scattering…
The real problem is not a scatter itself, ball may do whatever it likes, we have no affect on it …
Problem is absolutely other. It’s scattering in opinions, whatever we need to take scatter or not take it, what it depends upon or not depends.
It’s very easy problem to resolve, need just be " hands on " and collect data. For some reason uncompriencible to me, these who speak more about it do never do it actually …
Other qwestion is what wheel does to it… egain, besides Snow no one bothers ( Bebedictus a bit as well…).
So… lm continuing to make silly qwestions…
Till when we gonna treat wheels and balls being same? Till then we gonna tolk without working? Till when we gonna separate scatter from prediction and wheel itself??? Each wheel is different, each situation is different. … these differences induce dispersion and collecting factors in our scatter analysis. Who has balls to actually find these differences and understand their affect , catalog them and look for similarities in these so " different " situations???
Factors affecting scatter:
Ball sise
ball material
degree of “tilt"
Imperfections of wheels…
Let’s collect the data to really look what’s going on there, or continue to told about " scatter that no one knows how to properly” ?


#13

Volunteers? ?? I’m waiting. …


#14

[quote=“bebediktus”]


If dealer throw ball other - ball is effected to very end of spin and in place where you measure ball it is efected.



[/quote]

Not really, after first few rotations it may have same rotations as the other spin but very different later.

Also it is not proper to use strong tilt as a example if we really have 1-2 mm difference where the slope doesn’t have much influence. Long time ago i did a test few hundred spins on each diamond on much stronger tilt then we have in casino. No difference.


#15

[quote=“forester”]

Not really, after first few rotations it may have same rotations as the other spin but very different later.

[/quote]
For me looks that i say the same…


#16

After few rotations the ball may continue same as the other spin which in first few rotations was very different.


#17

[quote=“forester”]
After few rotations the ball may continue same as the other spin which in first few rotations was very different.
[/quote] any practical example? I mostly see opposite.


#18

@Sith What do you mean by degree of tilt? That can mean a number of things. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.


#19

[quote=“Davey-Jones”]
@Sith What do you mean by degree of tilt? That can mean a number of things. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
[/quote] Simplified, degree of tilt is just how many pins ( diamonds ) are at the game.
You can however look a bit more deep…
It will be difference between ball jumps from different falling places and other stuff alike…


#20

[quote=“forester”]After few rotations the ball may continue same as the other spin which in first few rotations was very different.[/quote]
Can be this and can be other so can be initial part the same , but rest part diferent and oposite initial part diferent - rest part - the same.

And all what can be between theese variants. Main thing if we look to small changes is that ball speed is not very related with real point where ball will stop.
So if look clockwise say number 17 and 5 and say 5 is longer distance by 0.25 - so here we cant say that ball which will give result 5 must be faster, than ball, which will give result 17.

And theese near situattions give main mistakes and theese mistakes are most often. …