Online poker bot for limit/no limit heads-up


#21

Hi, Securityman. Its an interesting post but I like sports and competition and its simply cheating.
No matter what way you would like to describe it the truth is in the terms you agree to abide by
state not that of interest, that people will not cheat using a bot and that the game will be played
on a level playing field seperated by skill, knowledge and possible luck.

My skill set is in the keeping fit and nutrition not roulette, I love sports from athletics, cycling, boxing
and more relevent here chess. I play chess online and even though in most cases money does
not cross hands I still encounter those who cheat, how do they cheat? They use a means by
which they gain an edge or can compete at a level they are not capable by using a comp which
is no different to using a poker bot. I play for fun and have no interest in cheating because its
simply not a challenge to cheat. I can use a chess comp or poker bot to practice and gain a better
understanding but to use such methods on unsuspecting players is not something that can be
deemed as not cheating if we assume the other player is not privvy to the same advantage or matter
of fact if you feel compelled to keep it a secret. This is true of any competition unless the rules
encourage looking for advantage over competition like we see in the development of an F1 car for example.

There are ways to counter this like to allow a poker room where bots or any methods of play can
be played as you can find in chess but of course its not about improving ones game but making
money or winning the pot. The loose psycholgy used in the post does little to detract me from its
purpose of drumming up sales, neither does it question my purpose or belief that I would be looking
for advantage the same way a 100 meter sprinter would by taking steriods or growth or a cyclist
using EPO.

Its about making money, I would keep it that way because trying to justify it in some manner
will do little to benefit on the course at hand, going on a tangent is not the best way to reach a goal.


#22

If you ever played cards a bit more complicated game you remember all cards.
That’s the point of playing.
If you do it in casino it is cheating.

When someone sits to play poker he accepts luck, skill, and possible better players then him.
I assume when someone plays poker online he is aware of robots, or perhaps someone who may Google to calculate odds. If his friend standing next to him and making suggestion than it may be cheating.

Chess is different, you play for your own challenge, Poker you play for profit.
I often play Spades online it’s similar game to Bridge. Never cross my mind to cheat, but I’ve seen people behave as kids.


#23

No you can play chess for money also online. Competition is competition regardless
whether its a game of cards, marathon or anything that is a game or sport and the
common thing they have is all are open to cheating due to varying abilities.

Yes you can learn odds but watching poker shows the best odds often doesn’t win under
the influence of the river card, Playing the psychology is very important which is a top shark
from a fish liability, it is also exactly the same in chess which is why many top level chess
players do well at professional poker. Likewise I may be able to improve your marathon
with nutrition and training but there is also other non legal substances which can do a
better job. Regardless of how different they appear they all require certain criteria to be
a competition or game.

Playing with an advantage is not a competition as you know just aswell as anybody, even
in roulette your knowledge beats the game, your challenge is the casino staff not so much
the wheel if you are happy to play. Playing with a bot online is someone trying to find an
unfair advantage not play a game or compete, instead its about money which in itself is the
goal! Winning is a by product of gain where as to play a game or compete is to win where
any bonuses of money/fame ect are now the by product of success!!

All i am saying is if the goal is to win, seeking unfair advantage is cheating, if the goal is profit
use the bot correctly to make the goal a reality but its not worth trying to make it sound as
if its fair play as the peddlers do in, Secmans post. Just because someone online maybe
using a bot doesn’t mean its not cheating for you to do likewise when the rules say its not
allowed, it just means there are more cheats around.


#24

Hello,

I tested the Shanky bot and only gets mediocre results at very low levels.
In decent levels lost.

Regards

Julio
Buenos Aires, Argentina


#25

Set the bot in aggressive mode and play limit low stakes heads up. Tell me your results.


#26

@ bago,im quite sceptical that a bot could prove profitable long term heds up , just my opinion

but hell if youre doing well then all the best to you

btw, the bot youre using the shanky bot?

@ devilish,totally correct ,usieing a bot is acording to the rules is cheating ,I dont think anyone would really disagree with that, As the owner states in his opening paragraph

as is using VB OR RC or doind a bias attack on a wheel ,ALL the before mentioned is classed as cheating by the casinos

bot users mainly are not (imo) so much trying to get an unfair advantge against feloow players ,but more relevant is there ability to clear bonuses and RACKEBACK as they can cover up to 6 tables at once

yes ok ill admit they will take advantage of bad/week players at th micro stakes ,but (imo) most players at theses levels are just having a bit of fun or trying to learn the game ,so if theyre up against a shark or a bot they WILL learn from (if they wnat ot that is) from the sharks/bots playing actions

So if I had phil ivey at my side in an online poker game im not(ACORDING TO THE POKER ROOM RULES) cheating ,but my quistion would be (NOT JUST TO YOU) Have i got an unfair advantage over my feloow players, lmao i would say ,BLOODY RIGHT I DO

playing against a bot (IN THE SURVEY I DID) did nt seem to bother most players in the leest,infact the most i asked welcome bots and they made humourative comments as in , they can be easily profiled especialy at 6max play and inturn players can play quite profitably against them

but devilish thx for your opinion it is valued

the owner of the forum is sure to back his product up as we have seen in his post , My main aim was to find out if they where scaming ,as you know this forum also prides itself in alerting the mebers of our forum and members of the public of scam on the net when it comes to gambling, after theyre product was brought to my attention, I set about to investigate for the member and the general public (this was my only intantion at this moment in time) I only would like to point out to all that read this they seem to me to be the real deal

You will on sending the correct fee receive the shanky bot , the product is a tool , it does function, no gaurntee is given at any time the bot will make you money, it also does come with free profiles as they promise, they are as far as I can make out a registered company

MY conclusion is this, regardles if anyone conciders thischeating the pass my biil of health and SECMAN stamp of approval for NOT BEING SCAMMERS

IMO i have no problem with poker bots online , I actually see it as a form of AP (although was on the fence for a while)

thx for reading this

your mate

Secman :-*


#27

I agree with you, Secman, neither do I have a problem with bots being used or
playing one as I feel my odds of beating it would be good overall. Maybe I
expressed myself incorrectly.

If the target is to reach a cleared bonus or something similar the goal to me
is not to win or play a game but reach your target (clear bonus) in which going
through the game is a required process and I would consider a bot to be a tool
just like the FF. Being a competitive soul my target would always be to win and
using a bot I could not in my mind say “I won” which for most people I know
would be cheating regardless of the rules.

Whilst the line for me is black and white whether I am playing a game or aiming
for a target and is the differance between cheating or achieveing my goal, the reason
I write is because your analogy on the casino and cheating using VB. Here I
disagree with it being cheating due to all games or competitions played have
to be played with a level playing field to be classed as that and roulette starts
with a 2.7% value against, yes the rules say you cannot use an FF but this is to
maintain the -2.7% not maintain integrity. Roulette is a game in principle, though
under a casinos control the maths advantage stops it being a game and instead
merely an activity for those who play. Yes using an FF is against the rules but
my goal is not to win here, its to increase my bankroll. ;D

Dont take it the wrong way on the bot issuse due to I am on your side with them
being used for certain objectives. The casino on the other hand cheat the odds,
yes I may break the rules but I am only cheating against a cheat in the first place,
not an innocent party so I argue its about parity when playing against a parasite.

Regards


#28

[quote=“devilish, post:27, topic:681”]Whilst the line for me is black and white whether I am playing a game or aiming
for a target and is the differance between cheating or achieveing my goal, the reason
I write is because your analogy on the casino and cheating using VB. Here I
disagree with it being cheating due to all games or competitions played have
to be played with a level playing field to be classed as that and roulette starts
with a 2.7% value against, yes the rules say you cannot use an FF but this is to
maintain the -2.7% not maintain integrity. Roulette is a game in principle, though
under a casinos control the maths advantage stops it being a game and instead
merely an activity for those who play. Yes using an FF is against the rules but
my goal is not to win here, its to increase my bankroll. ;D

Regards[/quote]

OK thx for zour replz ,it did clear up a few things for me as you did seem to be contradidting youreself

but hell yes they got to have an advantagle over the general public , thats how they make money pay the bills wages on time etc
actuallty they make from roulette about 25%

just for the record ,when a player places a bet at the roulette wheel he automatically accetpts the rules of the house and the casinos built in HE of 2.7% 5.26% anything that changes these odds is classed as cheating by the casino whether you like it or not

same with botting ,it is according to the rules of acceptance considered as cheating, I actually consider VB BIAS RC etc as cheating ,but as it is NOT ILLEGAL (in my country) then well , well just lets say i can sleep at night

thx again for enlighting me and good luck at the tables

youre mate

Secman


#29

We only accept the rules otherwise we cant particpate lol. Roulette was a game before
the zero made an appearance, due to gamblers it still made a profit with no advantage
yet casinos wanted even more. Betfair I think it is have a zero wheel and still make money
from it even today.

To play we have to agree the casino can cheat and still call it a game when it clearly is not
due to uneven playing feild. It is hard to accept being held to accept these rules as fair
so breaking the rules against an unscrupulous regime is something I will not lose sleep
over either. Not sure if the FF is illegal over here, it seems a grey area at present.

Zour reply? I am far from zour and am more then willing to listen to what you say even if we
have to agree to disagree :-*

On casino games though they have introduced a card game called “casino war” here, dont
know if you have seen it but the odds are something like 50.2% in the players favour!!
Dont know their reasoning for this past marketing but its not like you can make a million from
it, if they gave me that .2% at roulette I would be their best customer and a very happy man :stuck_out_tongue:


#30

you seem to be very badly informed , I hope when you type WE that im not included ,

To play ,(as WE do) the house edge is irelavant , lol That I dont accept ,how can WE Get me?

IF a casino was found to be cheating they would be closed down imediately , and the person/persons brought to trial

the odds/risk that players recieve (however low) are available upon request if not dispalyed directly at the gambling area

enter a casino , expect to lose , drink then drive your car expect to lose your licence

as I said before in the previous post ,accept it or not, anythng at all that alters the house edge is consodered as cheating and in some countrys illegal

I agree the games are classed as unfair , but as you know youll never here the casino mention it quite like that

if the games where fair then Id go strait back to my sytem playing days

my typing z for y is for a reason lol not that i want to make it public though

lol just reread my answer to you, you would think im on the casinos side , typing like i may even own one or have shares in one
(cough) enough said cya

Secman


#31

Not badly informed at all, though, if you point a referance I can maybe enlighten. Though I did
wince when you said you would go back to a system if it was equal odds as I do not know what
you would expect to achieve! As someone who worked out the double clocking which I thought
was brilliant by the way I would have thought it was beyond you playing a system but maybe
I miss something :o. Also the house edge is very relevant, first you need advantage just to break
even and also it is a constant and an AV players edge may not be but of course I may be badly
"misinformed"!!

We as in “We only accept the rules otherwise we cant particpate lol.” is correct as it applies
to every player be it me, you or any other participant whether we like it or not. Your penchant
for z over y is something beyond me though to be fair I read it wrong so my bad. Still dont get why
you seem bitter though over something which I see at most a differance of opinion but can spend
my time better so good luck in your endeavours :-\


#32

[quote=“securityman, post:30, topic:681”]you seem to be very badly informed , I hope when you type WE that im not included ,

To play ,(as WE do) the house edge is irelavant , lol That I dont accept ,how can WE Get me?

IF a casino was found to be cheating they would be closed down imediately , and the person/persons brought to trial

the odds/risk that players recieve (however low) are available upon request if not dispalyed directly at the gambling area

enter a casino , expect to lose , drink then drive your car expect to lose your licence

as I said before in the previous post ,accept it or not, anythng at all that alters the house edge is consodered as cheating and in some countrys illegal

I agree the games are classed as unfair , but as you know youll never here the casino mention it quite like that

if the games where fair then Id go strait back to my sytem playing days

my typing z for y is for a reason lol not that i want to make it public though

lol just reread my answer to you, you would think im on the casinos side , typing like i may even own one or have shares in one
(cough) enough said cya

Secman[/quote]

Wow, it seems that you Secman are badly informed! I reread your answer and it seems as though you are on ignorance’s side than the casino’s or the player’s.

The whole notion of a casino found to be cheating and then immediately shut down is completely asinine. I don’t think I have ever heard a more ridiculous statement in my life. First of all, the casino needs to be PROVEN to have been cheating beyond a reasonable doubt which is very difficult to do from a player’s POV. Secondly, even if that happens the majority of online gaming institutions are based in places like the Cayman Islands, Costa Rica or the Kahnawake Mohawk Territory where they are NOT subject to conventional Gaming laws and regulations and run pretty much how ever the hell they want. But suppose one casino decides in a drunken irrational state that it wants to be accountable to the gaming laws and their players, this brings me to my third point. How dumb do you have to be to think that a multi-billion dollar industry is just going to give up their license without a fight? Pretty freaking retarded if you ask me. If you know anything about corporations, not only do they cheat all the time, but they will fight like crazy to continue to get away with it. If they can’t win the fight, then they WILL SETTLE with the victims. Case in point, Absolute Poker Scandal. They are still up and running and the victims of the scandal were compensated. The player’s caught the cheater red handed and the site never lost their license, they just paid a fine to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission, settled with the victims, and Russ Hamilton GOT AWAY WITH IT!

But hey, I’m sure that you have a much better insight into how the entire online gaming industry works than anyone else.


#33

yes Davey, atleast we agree on that then,ofcource it needs to be PROVED first As Im led to beileve theyre governed by federal law

The whole notion of a casino found to be cheating and then immediately shut down is completely asinine.!!!
here are some links ,of wrong doings at the tables

http://www.casinoexecutivenetwork.com/news/four-illegal-casinos-closed-down-in-central-moscow/
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/December/10-crm-1449.html
http://en.casino-sonalia.com/news/full-tilt-pokers-license-is-suspended.html
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10406473

this link is more for devilish http://casinogambling.about.com/od/oddsandends/a/houseedge.htm

I was refering to devilishs remark that the built in HE of 2.7/5.26 …as he puts it as , CHEATING THE ODDS,nothing more nothing less
maybe ive misunderstood him,and he could clear up what that statement actually means,CHEATING THE ODDS?

is it your opinion too that the HE amounts to braking the law ,or cheating???

with devilishes asumtion Im merely trying to explain ,If this was the case ,(the casinos HE is an act of cheating)then, sure ALL casinos that where found to have 0 00 wheels would be closed down and for that matter all other games that have a HE

now that would be ridiculas

As for online ,well you hit the nail square on mate ,theyre mostly unregulated ,good point to make ,as we all should be awre of the fact

I hope i tried to clear up the misunderstanding

catch you on msn

Secman


#34

You are deluded, Secman. I have had lectures on fairness in sport and what
constitutes competition or games with subsequent conversations with students
and also a prof who competed in the olympics at kendo and yet you seem to be
above all of them.

To class a “game” for psychological reasons for the pupose of resulting in overall
gain, that is not a game and is cheating to me when most simply do not understand
along with a reluctance of the casino to educate on this! You can have a differance
of opinion but here it seems you simply cannot bear being wrong and not giving a
suitable explanation to assertain you assumptions even if you are correct.

In a true game you come across competition often from other players subjected to an
equal lay of the land, in these circumstances it comes to ability but it also gives
each participant the option to improve. In what criteria does a casino “GAME” allow
this, how do I improve my position over a built in disadvantage with the rules to
impose this permenantly? My point is not whether I am breaking the rules from the
black and white of text which would suit your diluted stand of opinion, but simply morally
I do not feel any guilt! In poker the rules are to allow players to have a level playing field,
for me to use a bot or any other assitance I cannot and would not claim to have won as I
would know the playing field was not level due to me seeking an advantage and morally
I would feel guilt. The stance of the casino is simply for maximum gain but they are not
honest in their pursuit of gain, wonder why.

My minor was psychology, I have possibly spent more time observing gamblers
from a far and a friend up close more than I have the wheel for the pupose of
backing up issues I have read concerning a gamblers antics and nature, the
likelyhood is the casino could give an advantage to the more afflicted and profit
yet my “misunderstanding” as you put it may have a little more substance to it
than you know. The casino is full of psychology, I even fell in to certain beliefs
which was not considered or recognised before simply because it seemed not
relevant, if you have an understanding look at the roulette set up, you maybe
surprised by what you find and the added benefits of the 2.7% house edge as
oppossed to just getting $2.70 form every $100 staked. Whilst I would like to
carry this subject further to I do not see the point with someone who seems to
not look past the depth of their own opinion or assumption. Also I wonder why
I am talking about this to a potential system player who would like 50/50 odds
which makes a differance because?

I give you credit for your past achievements and being kind and helpful previously,
I truly believe you have alot to give to players like me on the subject of
AV play but on this I simply disagree with you here end of. Not that I am against
a fresh view which could change my view but I would atleast like it carried with
substance hence on this topic you can follow with whatever you wish, it is now a
one sided opinion as I will not reply. Yey, Secman can declare a win, atleast in his
own mind :stuck_out_tongue:


#35

[quote=“devilish, post:23, topic:681”]Yes you can learn odds but watching poker shows the best odds often doesn’t win under
the influence of the river card, Playing the psychology is very important which is a top shark
from a fish liability, i[/quote]

So how the bot chits?
If I play against someone and in mirror behind him I see his hair goes up each time if he has bad cards and if I use it against him would it be cheating? Should I tell him… I can read you as a book?


#36

Hi, Forester

“If I play against someone and in mirror behind him I see his hair goes up each time if he has bad cards and if I use it against him would it be cheating? Should I tell him… I can read you as a book?”

Depends on your outlook surely? If you goal is to see who is best then yes, either tell them or not use it for advantage.

If on the other hand the goal is simply to win the pot in the case of poker then use it to achieve the set goal. It is not like
being a better player is important in this case would you say?


#37

“So how the bot chits?”

Depends on your opinion and goal. Also it can cheat only against weaker players, I do not
believe it will hold over a strong player so is limited in its use. e.g low stakes, weak opposition.

Beside in the spirit of gamesmanship it isnt whether something allows you to win or not but that
you are looking to cheat in the first place.


#38

LMAO my last post defiantley got you out of your corner :o

firstly I admire a man that puts up a good fight , thx ,honestly

lol,maybe I am deluded, I was merely trying to touch on the point you made about cheating the odds, that, are there,and, always have been ,but if you consider this as cheating ,then fine ,i do agree to a certain extent , the games that casinos offer are classe as an unfair game sure, heads and tales ,would be classed as fair ,sure ok , but hell i suppse the the LV giant could probaly make money out of that too

I honestly think were both saying the same things at heart here

but let me answer your last post

You are deluded, Secman. I have had lectures on fairness in sport and what
constitutes competition or games with subsequent conversations with students
and also a prof who competed in the olympics at kendo and yet you seem to be
above all of them.

I honestly dont think I could be above them all ,lets be fair, but maybe compete with them sure,Id like to give a shot

To class a “game” for psychological reasons for the pupose of resulting in overall
gain, that is not a game and is cheating to me when most simply do not understand
along with a reluctance of the casino to educate on this! You can have a differance
of opinion but here it seems you simply cannot bear being wrong and not giving a
suitable explanation to assertain you assumptions even if you are correct.

let me try ,if you class this as cheating then ok I accept your opinion, yes ok the casino dont wave banners and shout it out about the HE;;ok I Agree

as for being wrong ,well lol ,lno-one was as wrong as me when i first joined the forum,I actually welcome constructice critisisim

sorry that my explaination was not suitable , please be more clear at what was unclear for you and ill try again

also im a little confused as to exactly you ment by psychological reasons!!

In a true game you come across competition often from other players subjected to an
equal lay of the land, in these circumstances it comes to ability but it also gives
each participant the option to improve. In what criteria does a casino “GAME” allow
this, how do I improve my position over a built in disadvantage with the rules to
impose this permenantly? My point is not whether I am breaking the rules from the
black and white of text which would suit your diluted stand of opinion, but simply morally
I do not feel any guilt! In poker the rules are to allow players to have a level playing field,
for me to use a bot or any other assitance I cannot and would not claim to have won as I
would know the playing field was not level due to me seeking an advantage and morally
I would feel guilt. The stance of the casino is simply for maximum gain but they are not
honest in their pursuit of gain, wonder why.

Yes I agree here also,if we treat the device with maths there is noway ,ok ias I also feel no guilt what so ever by using any unwelcome approach to the roulette wheel ff vb bias etc
But I stand firm daer Sir by saying acording to the casino rules we are cheating and we will be classed as cheats ,and in some states in USA and some countrys, it is a criminal offence and thats just a plain fact

ok bots , I agree that i had no personal satisfaction ,and I could nt truely say I HAVE WON, but made money none the less

ok last sentence, totally agree , any trick in the book they will use it ,from simple tricks like not displaying the time of day ,giving free alcahol, food, not displaying CLEARLY THE HE, not noticing gambling addiction and giving the appropiate adive and help for the victim,(which is punishable by the gambling commision)

as for there honesty ,w ell just try to google that,I know i did some moments ago ,hey see what you can dig up mate… do casinos neeed to run there buisness In an unhonest fasion or illegally?

My minor was psychology, I have possibly spent more time observing gamblers
from a far and a friend up close more than I have the wheel for the pupose of
backing up issues I have read concerning a gamblers antics and nature, the
likelyhood is the casino could give an advantage to the more afflicted and profit
yet my “misunderstanding” as you put it may have a little more substance to it
than you know. The casino is full of psychology, I even fell in to certain beliefs
which was not considered or recognised before simply because it seemed not
relevant, if you have an understanding look at the roulette set up, you maybe
surprised by what you find and the added benefits of the 2.7% house edge as
oppossed to just getting $2.70 form every $100 staked. Whilst I would like to
carry this subject further to I do not see the point with someone who seems to
not look past the depth of their own opinion or assumption. Also I wonder why
I am talking about this to a potential system player who would like 50/50 odds
which makes a differance because?

that is also an interest of mine ,the behaviour of the average joe at the tables… that would make great leraning for me if you so wish to tie up with me on msn/skype id be honoured

yep, as i said in my previous paragraph, the most subtle of tricks can and do make there HE of 2.7/5.26 more to about 25% for the roulette table take in

could you pleaes expalin in a little more depth about advantage to the more afflicted? As I said before , LV could probaly make money by coin tossing (although quite sure how) was this what you refer to?

as to not looking farther than my own opinion, surely a little hard from you Sir :-*

as for a potential system player ,jeez very funny , I WAS THAT MAN JOHN SOLITUDE USED TO ROCK FOR ME :wink:

merely trying to hammer my point accros and that was not inteneded to be taken seriously, hard at times to truely expalin ones self by type alone

as for 50-50 I refer you to this the
likelyhood is the casino could give an advantage to the more afflicted and profit

In FRANCE , the introduction house limits and the mere odds structure of the game canceled out ALL systems that DID work at that time, that was basically about returning to systems, but I dont think for a minute that will ever happen ,come on do you?

LOL you know what dont answer that one :-*

I give you credit for your past achievements and being kind and helpful previously,
I truly believe you have alot to give to players like me on the subject of
AV play but on this I simply disagree with you here end of. Not that I am against
a fresh view which could change my view but I would atleast like it carried with
substance hence on this topic you can follow with whatever you wish, it is now a
one sided opinion as I will not reply. Yey, Secman can declare a win, atleast in his
own mind :stuck_out_tongue:

THx SIR , A nice summary , I do try to put back as to what I have taken from the forum

and sorry , no truely , if i was not substancial enough , but hopefully this post will give you to some insight to where i was coming from, I totally respect youre opinon and i only wanted to express mine as I thought some sort of lack of understanding as I saw it back then in earlier posts

that now you have corrected and made it very clear to me what your stand point is ,and that a thank you for

also hope ive made things from my side a little more clearer now as it is obvisous to me was nt getting through to you and Davey

I apologise for that

If you and I have learned anything here in our comunications then there is only winners here and no loosers

I truely feel that I can learn from you ,you seem to be highly educated and your studies of the players psychi

I look forward to many debates with you here and off the forum

your mate

Secman

PS dont make a big reply like the last one ,my index finger is really hurting here :-*


#39

Exactly cheating , thats why i posted the quote from the owner of the shanky bot company

some say ,noway , some belive it is,as devilish points out ,he would get none of the feel good factor about winning with the use of software to give him an advantage over his fellow players

I take that on board,and for him, it is cheating

there are very strong argumants for and against this, and thx guys for getting this thread back on topic

my stand point is simple, i dont see it as cheating ,the bots can simply be profiled(within a reasonable time scale) and be cheated back at, after researching this ,i found many players finding bots simpy as a joke,sort of BRING EM ON IN HERE

This is how a based my opinon on the subject

Secman


#40

Hi, Secman

There has been similar to this (comp vs human) remember “deep blue”. Comps before that were considered
to weak to be a threat and some questioned whether it would ever be better and dissmissed them as stupid.

Say if the clever boffins get a poker bot the best player on the planet will they still be embraced in the shifting
sands of time!

On the above post I have said all I wish, it seems we lose to much information on both sides as we post based
on information that is not available to the reader. I would prefer learn from you and others here than waste my
time on what is a pointless debate but would expand on some things in a more productive manner.

Got some batteries delivered today and am shocked by the size, they look suitable for a nano bots play toy,
Forester how big is this new creation of yours again!!! ???

P.s my opinion has been changed before now, just not often ;D