Some observations

Hi Folks

I am new to this part of the forum, and have recently got interested in VB2. I sent Forester an email with a few questions and observations and he suggested that I put them on here. The first is a method that I was working on a while back and wrote up for discussion. It seems to have some similarities with VB2. I am posting it as it leads into some questions that I have, and I hope you can help me with.

"Here is something that I have been knocking around for about year or so it is another way of doing VB. I have since heard that it has similarities to Foresters VB2, however I arrived at this solution completely independently.

The premise is simple:
If you were to have a constant beat (thumper, metronome, abcd abcd etc.) set at say 1 second beats. Now if you spin the ball and watch it as it slows down, once it reaches a speed of approximately 1 rotation/second you will see that every time the thumper beats the same number is under the ball for approx half a dozen revolutions. Try it next time at a casino just use abcd, over and over in your head and you should see what I mean.

When I first noticed this phenomenon I wondered if it were possible to use it to my advantage. As written above it doesn’t, the following is where I am at right now, note that this is still work in progress.

First you have to assume that you have a wheel with a dominant diamond (as usual) say you set your beats at 1 second apart for the time being. And choose a temporary reference point on the wheel, say a 12 o clock diamond.

The ball is spun, you wait until it is a little faster than 1 sec per revolution, this is the hardest part, then as it passes your ref point start your thumper/head count/ metronome. You will see for the next 3 or 4 spins that the ball will be over the same number on the thump. Note the number and see where the ball drops off. Lets assume that the ball dropped onto the rotor at 3 o clock to your number. As an example the number that you noted was 0 and the number that the ball struck the rotor was 17. this would be at 3 o clock.

Rinse and repeat for a few times, you should notice that the ball keeps dropping at 3 o clock using the above example.

What you do now is to offset your reference point to take this into account, in the above example you offset your ref point to the 3 o’clock diamond. now when you try with same rotor speed and DD, when you take your reading from the new ref you should find that the ball will strike the rotor on your prediction.

I hope that this is clear, of course in the real world you will have to adjust for scatter and rotor speed to suit, as per usual.

As I said above, this is work in progress, it is simple to use, and I think that there is potential to start to determine which diamond will hit based upon the distance that the ball travels after say 3 or 4 beats, but this seems to be a little more tricky."

Since writing this I have found that there is another factor that comes into account, and this is to do with different deceleration of the ball. For example originally I was testing this idea out on Bob Gordons spins, on a Huxley wheel, however when I tried it on a local Cammegh it wouldn’t work so I had to increase the length of time to 1.5 seconds as the 1 second timing lost “linearity” quite quickly.

Part of the reason that I developed this idea was because I wanted to try and use some kind of 1 second marching pattern to see if I could determine if the ball was going to hit the dominant diamond or not. I never really resolved this problem.

Foresters “Evolution” thread also got me more interested, as knowing an exact ball revolution can be tricky at best. I had found problems with the ball deceleration method. I could always spot the deceleration on my videos but it was out - or + 1 so that wasn’t good enough. I eventually settled on a head counting method of my own with a combination of 1 sec marching patterns, then I could get it right pretty well every time.

The biggest hurdle that I am finding with VB methods is this, as I see it even if you have a dominant diamond two problems arise whilst playing.

• Other diamonds hit, and unless you have some kind of optimum rotor speed your predictions are likely to be out.
• The speed of the ball as it approaches the DD will vary and thus hit it in different places creating different scatter. It seems to me that VB relies on tracking for what seems to be the most popular ball jump. So unless you get a sharp peak on your scatter graph, then, even when the ball hits the DD you still have a similar problem to the above and you are a little in the hands of the gods. So even if you use these techniques the fluctuations could be huge at times. Of course I do accept that this is the way things are with VB.

So what to do? Who knows, but I have given it some consideration.

For the first problem I figured that you could check the data to determine if any of the numbers hit from different diamonds overlap with predicted ones at specific rotor speeds. However this could still be a bit hit and miss, but is better. Bebidictus has an interesting idea where he uses his “triangular” method, as written in this VB2 forum, which is something that I will look into further.

Everyone appears to condemn Laurances crossover patterns as old fashioned. In his first book, he at least has a potential solution for other diamonds hitting, which is to use cross over analysis. That is that when the crossovers occur there are 3 passes of the ball over the 0s. and these passes of the ball generally make 3 distinct patterns, which he says can determine if the ball is likely to drop in the same octant or -/+ 1 octant. Unfortunately no one seems to be able to tell me if a comparative analysis can be done with other methods. And yet I have read on several occasions that there are ways for doing this.

Regarding the second problem of the ball hitting the diamond at different speeds I have no clue as to how you could determine this by eye alone, unless you use some kind of device, or a bigger bet spread. The only thing that I can say about these two problems with a degree of certainty is that if you could bet on the last rotation of the ball you might have an idea by looking at the speed of the ball as to whether it will hit the diamond and where it will hit approximately, but this is too late of course. It wouldn’t surprise me if there are people who can do this several revs out.

Is there a way to overcome these problems in any way using VB2, as it stands, or can it be adapted in some way to take these factors into account?


That is the way, sometimes someone third may bring now light on subject.
IN PM you wrote

"I know that I keep saying it but this really is a clever method and I also believe after reading your "evolution" thread that it does overcome some of the misgivings of traditional VB techniques, although there may be other things all situations."

At few places I pointed that with every method we use we gain something and lose something.
I like vb2 and ff with timer. But I will like more if I can play that way so I do not need a switch for time triggering.
Sure there are options but I did not find any that suits me. I tried but it gets too complicated because have to do too many adjustments.
Your idea is good maybe can be something from that.

Let say you use time of 1 sec, it ticks all the time.
At signal you see ball over zero when you get timers vibration.
Let’s say the ball crosses across rotor numbers 74 pockets in one sec, so when you get signal again the ball will be again over zero. (if I understand you right). So the ball did not make 2 rotations in relation to wheel frame but in relation to rotor numbers.
(Ball + rotor in 1 sec made 74 pockets all together)

Next sec. of course the ball will make a bit shorter distance, in usual it is about 6 pockets less which means if rotor is traveling with speed of 6 sec per sec that you will read zero again.
[If rotor is 12p/s you will read #2 (rotor ACW direction)]
To keep it constant for 12 sec rotor we will need time of 2 sec. So the ball slows down 2x6 pockets.
That is what will satisfy VB2.

Same can happen when the ball and rotor together make 37 pockets, and that is what you were explaining. So the ball speed is slower than 1 sec, if rotor is 12p/s the ball makes 37-12=25 pockets in one sec which means that the ball speed is ~1.48s.

While with VB2 I am trying to predict before the knee point (if it exists) when targeting ball at that range you may be in area when the ball decelerates the fastest. So instead of 6p/s it may be 8-9 so it may suit your rotor speed better since 6 p/s is not common.

Adjusting time for you to have the best match doesn’t make much sense, because you want to use this process only to identify particular ball rotation. From that point of view you are actually better off if the time doesn’t match, so your matching pattern lasts less.

You do not want ball over the same number 5-6 rotations, it will be impossible to select in which one to predict. But if it is in within 2 then perhaps you may get something from it.
For example 0,015 and you read reference number.
Or 26,0,32
Something close.
And you are coming to point of cross patterns as LS.
Now if rotor is a bit faster
0,0 pattern you will find a bit later.


We go back to example where the ball makes 62 and rotor 12 pockets in one sec.
If rotor is 15 p/s to find 0,0 pattern in one sec the ball needs to be slower.

So you may find it in one rotation later. Which is really great (you reversed Laurance’s cross pattern). If rotor is in ACW direction one rotation later you will read #34,or 36 somewhere there.

So it is adding in ball direction which you really need since the rotor is faster.

If you were predicting as you do when the ball is about 1.5 sec per rotation. You may prediuct one rotation later which will make you read about 20 pockets after zero and if remaining time is 7 sec, the difference in rotor speed 15-12=3p/s in sec. will make 21 pocket which is what you already have.

The problem is you still may be in same ball rotation and read #0
You may see pattern 0,0,19

It may be worth trying to play it, without any rotor adjustments.
Good thing is that with faster rotor you are finding pattern later.
With LS is opposite so you read number earlier and the ball actually crosses more pockets because of faster rotor.

That different method you sent me is ok,

It is as I explained in evolution thread when the player strobes the ball.
Can use 1 sec or even less spaced pulses when first one starts eh can count 1,2,3,4… and check where the ball is. He can try to match pattern or by observing distance that the ball made he can learn to know , how earlier in time during the spin he is.

This should be better than finding pattern with rotor included. It is because it is not dependant on rotor speed as I explained earlier. Once you find the pattern you know that is it. So all you need to do is to make adjustment for rotor change.
The difference you will see in between two rotation when the ball is about 1 sec per rotation is about 5 pockets.
For example you may see one rotation -1 pocket and 0 and +3 is making ~6 rev to the end.
You may play 0,1,2, or one rotation +2,3,4 pockets to get DD hits.

In regards to timer,
Jefra found something interesting on net. It is only few $ and I believe it may be used as continuous timer.
Some kind of microelectronics zapper it sticks to skin and it is very small.
I do not know to which time intervals it can be adjusted but it may be worth trying to see what it is.

By the way I do not count 1 and 2 and 1 and 2

I count very fast 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,910,1,2,3,4,5 ;D

For a bit faster rotor with vb2 I may just count one or 2 digits more.
It also helps with some errors that vb2 makes.

Yes that is the weekest place of VB. If ball hits other diamond usually you completely miss. I can suggest one way which sometimes work better than predicting on dominant diamond. That I call like predicting on dominant rest zone. When you do observations before play look more not to which diamond ball hits mostly but where it stands mostly. Lets say Dd is our highest point of wheel, so about opposite will be our lowest place of wheel . So we simply count and do map where the ball stand mostly, if that zone have some domination over others zones than you can try to play on it zone. This method sometimes helps when ball hits say one time at 12 o’clock diamond but stops say at 5 o’clock position, but next time it hits to 3 o’clock diamond but stops also at 5 o’clock position. Difference in duration spin in these two cases is very slight , usually not more than +/- 0,5sec so ball standing position will vary in frame which wheel moves in that 1 sec so about 8-10 pockets, but if you predict on diamond and Ball will hits to other then ball standing position will be different by (8-10) + 9 .That prediction on dominant ball stop zone works not always, but player must have skill to recognize which way is better.


Thanks Forester and Bebidictus for your comments.

Forester I found it interesting what you had to say in respect of LS cross over patterns in reverse, I may look at this further, I have a couple of possible ideas that may have a use for that, I had never thought about it that way.

I had missed the part about the free running timer that you had written in the evolution thread, dunno how that happened.

Bebidictus the method that you talk about is similar to what I have been trying with overlapping numbers, to get some kind of average prediction zone, but like you say you need to check it against other data to make an informed decision as to use it, as there may be other opportunities.

In respect of VB2 I have a number of questions, but I would like to digest what’s written here first as they may have already been answered, and I don’t want to repeat topics and posts if I can help it.


bebediktus has a point and that’s how it is in real game
What I explained in this post is only part of that (in 7 spins get one proper hit).,1019.msg9165.html#msg9165

Theoretically, play 2 pin play 3 pin it looks no matter where the ball hits we win.
Sure, but only if we look scenarios when it happens.
Let’s say after 6 rotations zero is at 12 o clock DD, the ball hits there, jumps 12 pockets, stops at number 13 we win.
IT is
*6 rotations, 0 at DD, 12 jump, 13 win
If ball did not jump but stopped instantly
*6 rotations, 0 at DD, o jump, 0 loss
If the ball makes 6,25 rotations hits at 3 o’clock we would have
*,25 rotations, 13 at 3D, 0 jump, 13 win
(for ball to make 6.25 rotations form moment we observe it it has to go a bit faste rthen bal ltaht makes 6 rotations. Fotr that reason when the bal makks 6 rotations something at #35 will be at DD. Number 2 at 3oclock. Until the ball makes 0.25 extra rotations (~0,5) rotor moves from number 2 at 3 ‘o clock to number 13.
Now we have
*6,25 rotations, 13 at 3D, 0 jump, 13win
*6,25 rotations, 13 at 3D, 12 jump, 20 loss

The ball makes 5.25 rotations
It is 0.75 rotations less than 6 or about 1.6 s shorter remaining time.
Zero did not have time to come to 12 o ‘ clock but it is about 1.6s x 10p/s=16 pockets earlier which is number 16. Then number 29 is at 3 o’lock
Now we have
[b]*5,25 rotations, 29 at 3D, 0 jump, 29 loss

*5,25 rotations, 29 at 3D, 18 jump, 13 win
*5,25 rotations, 29 at 3D, 12 jump, close[/b]

We need 6 extra pockets for the ball to jump, if the rotor was slower we need less.

The ball makes 5.75 rotations hits at 9 o’clock. At 12 o clock we have #28
*5,75 rotations, 1 at 9D, need 26 jump to win at 13
*6,75 rotations, 2 at 9D, 6 jump, 13 win
*6,75 rotations, 2 at 9D, 0 jump, close
*6,75 rotations, 2 at 9D, 12 jump, close

The ball never travels 6 rotations in exactly same time especially not when it makes 6 rotations +or - something. So the rotor will not be perfectly in right position, another reason we do not calculate rotor perfectly. The ball perfect jump is not just one pocket wide. For that reason in examples anything marked with close has same chance as situations marked with win.

The fact what I described is a bit different than Forester describes. 6 rotations till end we usually cant recognize ball speed in such accuracy that we can determine to which diamond it will hit. So the same looking ball can hit to 12 o’clock diamond or to 3 o’clock diamond.

So in most cases the ball which will hit to 12 o’clock diamond in his traveling will be shorter ( not always but in most cases ) than that which will hit to 3 o’clock diamond. What will hapend when bouth balls will be at moment when left 6 rotations (our prediction time ) seems the same but at the end they hit to that’s different diamonds ?

In both cases we predict at one diamond in our case it is 12 o’clock diamond and our prediction in both cases is the same -0, but we know common scatter is 12 pockets so our prediction is 13. Of course hitting to next diamond can produce less scattering, but possible not. In that case when not, there are possible variant that ball will hit to 3 o’clock diamond later about 0,5 sec than that ball which will hit to 12 o’clock diamond, so it can hit over maybe 11 number and if it scatter the same it will land on about 31 number.

Difference between 13 and 31 is 14 pockets. It is possible scenario which can happend but not always. But if we imagine that our bottom of hole is say 6 o’clock position and ball no mater - hits to 12 o’clock or 3 o’clock will stand in about the same position, then we can predict more accurate no matter to which diamond will hit ball. Because our prediction point will move in that 0,5 sec say maybe 5 pockets. All that can work if there really is bottom of tilt .