On dealer signature


#1

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/roulettesteeringorsectionshooting.htm

Interesting…
[hide]
CAN DEALERS REALLY STEER THE BALL AT ROULETTE? THE MYTH OF DEALER SIGNATURE AND "SECTION SHOOTING"
By Steve Forte
(From Blackjack Forum Vol. XII #2, June 1992)
© 1992 Blackjack Forum

[Editor’s note on the background of this article: In this article, Steve Forte is responding to a number of myths put forward by Laurance Scott in a previous issue of Blackjck Forum regarding roulette “dealer signature” and “section shooting” (attempts to steer or aim the ball to a desired sector of the wheel). Laurance Scott has proposed, incorrectly, that roulette dealer signature is exploitable by players, and that roulette section shooting (or steering) is a common method of dealer cheating at roulette. Players should especially be cautioned that attempts to gain an edge by exploiting dealer signature at roulette will be harmful to their bankrolls over the long run.]

After first reading “Nevada Roulette” by Laurance Scott (Blackjack Forum Vol. XI #3, September 1991), I was left with a number of puzzling observations. There were so many inaccuracies regarding Nevada roulette versus roulette played elsewhere, modern wheels, dealer job security, the roulette “hold,” system players, countermeasures, hustling for tokes and the overall general conduct of the industry.

The thrust of the article had little to do with the controversial idea of dealer aiming, or “section shooting,” at roulette, but described Scott’s beliefs about supposedly common countermeasures used against winning players. I find it difficult to believe these practices could get past a real expert roulette player more than once, nor would I consider the practices “cheating.”

Laurance Scott is probably more qualified than most to describe the physics, technical factors and methods he believes would be used to section shoot. But aside from the ridiculous “Jane gets cheated” scenario, and the statement: “…the characteristics that make the wheel beatable from the player’s standpoint are the same characteristics which allow experienced dealers to cheat players by ‘aiming’ for sections,” there isn’t even a brief description or possible theory as to how it’s actually done.

It’s been over 15 years since I dealt the wheel and first heard the stories about roulette section shooting. I remember trying to spin the ball the same way from the same starting point and tracking my results. There never was any correlation. Years later I learned that this “same spin, same starting point, fall into the groove” reasoning was fallacious, and just one of many traps you fall into when you try to convince yourself that this “skill” is possible. I also witnessed my first demonstration of roulette section shooting from a 20-year veteran, and it was far less than convincing. After years of listening to the debate I’ve found that those who support such claims seem to fall into one of three categories:

Those who believe roulette section shooting (or steering) is a manipulative skill that can be acquired with practice.

Those who contend that if beating the wheel by eye is possible then section shooting must be possible as well.

Finally there’s the group that has either heard about it, claim to have seen it done or believe they can do it themselves.

Interestingly, these views are all apparent in the article by Scott, and the subsequent letters submitted to Blackjack Forum by the ex-roulette dealer, the pit boss and Harry McArdle.

For example, in the letter from the former roulette dealer, the dealer asks: “How long would it take to learn to spin a roulette ball exactly four revolutions before dropping?” The implication is that if one can perfect the skill at this level, then one can master the technique for actual casino conditions. I don’t believe you can rationalize in this way. Even with only one revolution and a super slow rotor, a significant margin of error still exists. As you increase revolutions (eight and nine revolutions are rarely seen, and 10 to 12 are considered very few) and pick up rotor speed, the margin of error will compound quickly eventually wiping out the skill factor.

The former roulette dealer also implies that the “skill” is easily attainable and the methodology is very straightforward. I believe these views to be a gross understatement of the difficulty. There are too many factors that move section shooting past the point of attainable manipulative skills.

Consider the capricious nature of the wheel. It is an undeniable fact that the characteristics of a specific wheel that may theoretically make it beatable one day can change the next day, or even the next minute, making the game unbeatable. Even the same dealer, same equipment and similar measurements of ball and rotor speed will yield different results at different times. I proved this phenomenon to myself some years back after spending 17 days on the road scouting, evaluating conditions, and recording data on hundreds of wheels. Laurance Scott states the same opinion in How to Beat Roulette. He cautions: “…there are inherent factors of the game that cause wheels to phase in and out of predictability,” and: “I have scouted over 300 wheels and only a handful exhibit consistent behavior day after day.”

Many people will argue that roulette dealers after time develop “signatures” to their spins. They argue that roulette dealers “fall into a groove” and that a typical spin tends to produce similar results. I disagree. These same typical spins, produced with the same force (whether deliberately or by habit) will produce different results from day to day! How then could roulette dealers ever possibly develop “signature” spins?

What causes the unpredictable nature of a roulette spin? Basic wear and tear on the wheel. A tilted wheel, high spot(s) on the track, oil or dust on the track, temperature, oil and dust on the ball, and air density are a few of the many forces that represent the real nemesis of roulette computer teams and visual players.

Are the balls perfect spheres? Is the composition (weight) even distributed? Many experts say no and believe that these flaws are responsible for some of the strange results that one commonly encounters. I believe this phenomenon was first mentioned in the Romeo Project, a book that detailed an algorithm for roulette computer play. Interesting side note: Don’t try to find this book, as every copy was purchased by a serious roulette computer team before it ever reached the public.

Finally, the most obvious factor, and remarkably, the one that many seem to forget: Roulette section shooting or steering would require the perfect correlation of two questionably attainable skills, not one. The roulette dealer would have to aim twice! He would first have to push the rotor to a perfectly pre-determined speed, and then spin the ball with a perfectly pre-determined force. And the actions would have to be executed naturally to avoid suspicion. Compare these actions to those of professional bowlers, golfers, pool players and similar athletes. These pros only aim once and can literally take as much time as they want to warm up, evaluate conditions, and calculate the effects of their actions.

These are just a few of the many factors that contribute to the unfeasibility of section shooting. I hope to show that section shooting or steering would be infinitely more difficult and complex than most believe.

The ex-roulette dealer also comments, “If a player can clock a moving roulette ball, couldn’t a dealer?” This is a little like comparing apples to oranges. Just look at the mechanics involved.

A section shooting dealer must first push the rotor perfectly to a practiced, pre-determined speed. The ball must then be placed into the track perfectly at a pre-determined starting point. The ball spin would then have to begin with the same practiced initial velocity, carrying the ball perfect around the track a consistent number of revolutions before drop off. These are the physical skills that would have to be perfected. It would not at all be just a matter of interpreting observations of events that had already occurred.

When you read the views of the former roulette dealer and pit boss in Blackjack Forum, it becomes clear that these people really believe what they say is fact. This is not surprising. It seems that after people work in gaming for a short time they fall victim to the “I’m a Pro” Syndrome. After performing the same actions repeatedly, day in and day out, they convince themselves that they “should have” and therefore “must have” control over these actions.

Ask blackjack dealers what they do when players start “running over” the game. Most will change their shuffle in some way. They feel that by adding an extra riffle, an uneven break or perhaps a thinner strip, these changes may help get the game turned around. Then, when it does turn around—and it always does—they take the credit. They convinced themselves they can control the uncontrollable instead of simply realizing that normal fluctuation is alive and well.

In roulette, I believe every wheel dealer has at one time or another probably tried section shooting. Since very few players walk away from the roulette table a winner, the dealer takes the credit. He seems to forget about the 5.26% house advantage.

There are two procedures that effectively stop any possibility of the roulette section shooting or steering myth from becoming a reality. They are the “blind spin,” where the dealer spins the ball without ever glancing into the rotor, and the “last pocket spin,” where the dealer picks the ball out of the winning pocket, waits one revolution and spins from the same position the ball last landed. Both the pit boss and Harry McArdle point to these procedures as proof that roulette section shooting or steering exists.

After all, the logical question is, “Why do you think they have procedures like these?” As it turns out, the procedures are excellent, but the benefits realized by the industry have nothing to do with the prevention of “section shooting.” They do, however, create good control and uniformity, and minimize the most annoying, ludicrous, unprofessional reality in gaming, which is dealers and pit bosses who sweat every dollar as if it was their own. Roulette dealers of this type visibly and with emotion try to “place” and “aim” the ball as if trying to steer, and mistakenly believe they can affect the outcome.

I also decided to give the accused a chance to tell their side of the story. I asked a close friend and triple sharp, all-around gaming executive, Gary Saul, to help me find the top wheel dealers in Las Vegas. Our research led to a couple of Cuban dealers who worked together in a major casino. This was no surprise, since the best roulette dealers in the world come from Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico. Having spent time in the casinos of the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico, and having watched the Cuban dealers work here in the states, I can vouch for their incredible mastery of and dedication to the wheel. With a combined 75 years of dealing experience between them, both in Cuba and in the U.S., they were asked for their opinions regarding the recent controversy. They laughed and said, “If we could do that, do you think we’d still be working?”

Their response suggests two very important contradictions to Scott: “Why would anyone develop this skill to cheat players when you could work with outside accomplices to cheat casinos?” and, “If, in fact, this skill was real, you might just have the perfect crime as far as gambling scams go.”

After all is said and done, I will admit, I believe there could be a set of circumstances and extremely hard-to-find conditions that might possibly allow section shooting to exist for extremely limited periods of time. But even attempts under such theoretically perfect conditions seem futile after analysis on a practical level.

Just ask yourself these questions:

There are approximately 300 wheels in Nevada, but how many must be excluded from even the possibility of dealer steering or section shooting due to the procedures in place at the casino (the blind spin, etc.)? How many casinos use the best old-time wheels with the most favorable features? How many of even these old wheels will exhibit manageable rotor decay rate and predictable bounce? Less than thirty, if even that.

Then ask, “How many dealers work in the same casino, with the same equipment, long enough to develop these questionably-attainable “skills”? How many are able to identify the right conditions? How many understand the physics involved and know exactly what it is they are trying to accomplish? A handful? I doubt it…

Finally, how many roulette players are then vulnerable? You can’t cheat any player who bets after the ball is released, skilled or otherwise. You can’t cheat the majority of system players or typical players who spread multiple bets across the layout with no preference for specific numbers or sectors. So who’s left? The occasional player who makes one straight-up bet or a few bets in a specific section? When you do find these roulette players, what happens when other players are betting the other side of the wheel?

If Laurance Scott had stated that he believed a possibility existed that, with exceptionally favorable conditions, an extremely knowledgeable and skilled dealer might theoretically be able to section shoot on a temporary basis, I might have agreed with him.

He did not express these views about roulette section shooting or steering. He stated: “Nevada casinos cheat their roulette customers,” and “…experienced dealers cheat players by aiming for sections of the wheel,” and, “Nevada roulette is really nothing more than a carny game,” and you can “…assume the game is rigged (which it is).” I couldn’t disagree with him more. :spades:

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[Editor’s note: In this article, Steve Forte refers to prior articles and letters to the editor published in Blackjack Forum on the topics of roulette section shooting or steering and dealer signature. These will be added to the library soon. [/hide]


#2

His point of view is shared with a lot of people within the gaming industry but its not so black and white as he makes it.

I agree that sector shooting is not likely to be seen in the average game just about anywhere in the casinos.

But that it should be because its physicly impossible i cant agree to because we all know that when the conditions is right it CAN be done. Just look at Jafcos videos on the topic. Spinning from the last outcome number is only stopping the dealer from hitting a sector at his choice but isnt stopping him from spinning with a certain speed that an acomplice might take advantage of. We all know that of all the obstacles he mentions , for example the diamonds, it would be impossible to predict anything if they WEREN`T there. For a long time it was a secret that the bigger the diamonds the better,but thats history now. The manufacturers now insert smaller diamonds where the ball sort of just roll over instead of catapulting the ball down in the wheel.

The article is written by someone with at the time relatively small knowledge of the physics implied. To him it sounds impossible for a dealer to spin a wheel with the same speed, well, all he had to do was to time 20 spins from a calm relaxed experienced dealer and see what he came up with. Interesting is it though that in one of his latest works he shows how to actually apply VB on a real wheel. I think if you ask him today he will have a slightly different point of view compared to the one he had in 1992.


#3

Five years ago

Roulette, dealer signature myth or not ?

Obviously when writing that post he didn’t take in consideration an effect of roulette wheel with dominant ball drop point. So I do not agree with him that Laurance was wrong, but that Laurance knows more.

On the other side basic DS in casino is much harder than at home wheel.


#4

Agreed. But in Steve Fortes latest book he has a whole chapter on VB and how it works and is also able to apply it himself when there is a drop point. So he is probably a wiser man today :slight_smile:


#5

I strong belive and convinced many times that is possible for dealer to hit wanted sector, more experienced dealer even excat number, gents.

Still young and newbie in all this (AP) but no one can prove me i am wrong about this.

I know a man who worked as a dealer 30 years and from him i know that possibilty for dealer to hit some sector is not empty claims at all… Very possible actualy.

Some time ago i was spending much time on DB, and i have seen this situautions many times also…

These situations happens usualy when no one is at the table or around, so dealers cut the time with “playing or joking”.

Experienced and skilled dealer can hit sector which he wants.

Few days ago i was playing in fun mode at dublinbet. There was no one at the table playing or standing in close to the tables. As the table on which i was playing, so as the other one. Only two of the dealers with no one else there. They were chatting and laughing in very relaxed mood. Suddenly dealer at the table i was playing made something very strange to me, because i have seen that for the first time. What happened? She (Renata) spun the ball as usual, and when bets closed, 2-3 rotations before the ball will land, she put her point-finger on the number 13 on the board. The number 27 came out. First neighbour to the 13. I was amazed, and momentarely told this to my friend dealer. He explained that this is nothing strange. Very familiar to him from his career as a delaer. What is this about? When there is no one playing or standing at the table, sometimes dealers are betting for a drink beetwen themselfs who will spun the closest number…

And yes i know that from a man who can do that, that experineced dealers can hit number which they want (not always but in high ratio of course), and not to tell about hitting specified sectors i.e 5-10 numbers…

And didn’t you heard that delaers can have their own “players”?

They are also under very strict controls just because of that.

Once,few months back,same happened at the table 1 and 2,dealers were Martin and Istvan …
Martin=12,12,28,12,29,12,7,35,28,12 and Istvan=3,12,18,29,7,12,29,29,12,12

Wouldn’t you call this a competition,as between spins they were talking to each other all the time in very relaxed mood.

Dealers specialy like players who plays only small or zero serie, when they spot them they can be roasted if they want.

So what i would do to prevent this, never play alone at the table, but with at least 3 players… Not AP of course…

Regards


#6

[quote=“Tiro, post:5, topic:806”]I strong belive and convinced many times that is possible for dealer to hit wanted sector, more experienced dealer even excat number, gents.

What happened? She (Renata) spun the ball as usual, and when bets closed, 2-3 rotations before the ball will land, she put her point-finger on the number 13 on the board. The number 27 came out. First neighbour to the 13.[/quote]
It’s nothing strange she predicted 2-3 rotations before the ball will land. But in first sentence you said you believe the dealer can hit wanted sector. Which means he( she) point wanted sector BEFORE the ball was spun.


#7

Excatly. She was hitting sector obviously, but point only 3 rotatations before hitting. Why? If no one was at the tables at that moment it doesnt mean someone wasnt on line ( as i was) so could take advantage of that…

When she pointed at the number, bets were already closed for on line players, beacuse they close bets little earlier then in B&M casino this livestream goes from.

Regards


#8

Boring and sad that some pretenders trying to be expert and write article about things they know nothing about.

Only thing i can add to this is that there exist some pretty clever wheel signatures - witch take andvantage of physic parameters.
Among other words you can call them light visual ballistic solutions.


#9

Steve Forte is not a AP player and know very few about the matter, I read the article some time ago.

But, we should agree thet DS is easier on AT(automat wheels). The problem is that in most AT you cannot place bet as soon as the rotor start moving.

I have done I broad reserch on them.


#10

And


#11

You need over 30k to be confident to play DS. The exception is when the St dev tells you it is time to play before the 30k.

We measure yardage, yardage after yardage, difference between 2 consecutive yardages.

This realm is related to ball drop orbits and wheather conditions too.

It is hard work to achieve for only 1 person, you need help.


#12

Well i remember it - outcome to outcome 7 STD witch you name weird signature - 14 numbers - pretty cool …


#13

[quote=“lucky_strike, post:12, topic:806”]-

Well i remember it - outcome to outcome 7 STD witch you name weird signature - 14 numbers - pretty cool …[/quote]

7st dev is too much, nice


#14

By Frank Scoblete

" Casino dealers often get into the same easy rhythm when they deal and this is true of roulette dealers as well. They pick up the ball and spin it the same way every time, and they also give that ball the same “oomph” as well. The ball will tend to spin around the roulette wheel the same number of spins as it did the previous spins and it should therefore land approximately the same number of pockets from where the dealer picked up the ball.

If the dealer can actually achieve what I just wrote it is called a dealer signature, the dealer’s own particular fingerprint on the game. Obviously no two dealers would be alike in how they do this and thus no two fingerprints would be the same.

Is this really possible? Can dealers actually have such signatures? Or is this kind of thinking just wishful thinking, the same kind of thinking that leads players to believe in trend betting and the like? The opinion of experts is divided. A few say it is possible; more say it isn’t possible and the pains-in-the-neck experts say it is theoretically possible but probably not actually possible at a real roulette wheel.

I tend to lean more towards those who believe this is possible with strong reservations. However, if a dealer has such a signature I would think it is somewhat ephemeral and would not necessarily be manifested as often as players looking for it would like.

If a dealer’s signature were subconscious, that is, the dealer is really not aware of what he or she is doing, then it would take thousands of rolls of the ball with each of perhaps hundreds of experienced dealers to ascertain if the concept had any merit. There has never been a study such as this (as far as I know) because it would take the patience of Job to do it.

If the dealer’s signature were conscious then that would be a totally different story. Such a dealer would have the ability to make his friends, his family and himself a bundle of money over time – and if he were caught he’d be playing the uncomfortable game of prison roulette. So such a conscious talent might be used subtly to nail players the dealer didn’t like, help those the dealer did like, and maybe make some money on the side for an occasional friend or family member.

Roulette dealers disagree as to whether such a thing as a signature is possible. In fact, they doubt whether the subconscious or conscious creation of signatures exists at all. Very few dealers of the dozens of dealers I have spoken to believe signatures actually exist. They are more skeptical than the experts – actually, the dealers are the true experts here and they should probably be listened to.

However, if a signature study were done, could it successfully determine once and for all if the signature exists on the part of some dealers? Don’t be so quick to say yes because there are several factors that might make the study invalid or impossible to do.

Thinks of this: How could a person, notebook in hand, stand by a dealer’s table, then follow that same dealer from table to table, day after day, recording her spins without the dealer becoming uncomfortably aware of such a person? Maybe the dealer might at first think that the wheel was being observed for flaws, but this still might cause him to alter his spin to stop the player from determining what that wheel’s flaw is.

Anything that is dealer-dependent could be immediately changed when the dealer becomes aware of being watched. As in quantum physics, the observer interferes with the observed by the mere fact that he is observing. In such a case you can probably forget about ascertaining a dealer signature. I think the discovery of a dealer signature in real casino play is probably impossible if one wishes to have dealers followed for any prolonged period of time. Therefore, the dealer signature might exist but might not be able to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

There is also another problem in proving dealer signatures. Roulette wheels do slow down over time, so the movement of the wheel from time “A” to time “B” could be different enough to affect how many pockets pass the ball by as the ball spins around the wheel. The dealer might do everything the same exact way but with each ball-spin she is playing into a fractionally different wheel speed and dealer signatures would end differently around the wheel as the wheel slowed somewhat. A researcher would then be required to analyze the pattern of the signature over different wheel spins – an impossible task in my estimation.

If dealer signatures truly existed, they would be exploitable in short-term play, as the gradual slowing of the wheel’s speed would not affect the signature quite so drastically.

So what should you do?

If the dealer signature exists, then it will help you to win if you could actually figure it out. And if it doesn’t exist, you won’t hurt yourself anymore playing that way than you would hurt yourself playing any other way. You would face the same house edge you would have faced had you played any other kind of layout strategy. So have some fun and go ahead and see if you can figure out a dealer’s signature. It might be like searching for Bigfoot but it’s worth a try."


#15

I believe there is “something” to it, since I witnessed a demonstration by a seasoned professional.

About ten years back, one October at the Annual Las Vegas Gaming Expo, I was working as an exhibitor for casino.com. I had the opportunity to have lunch and speak with the Director of Gaming for a major casino located on one of the smaller Caribbean Islands. This soft spoken, well-dressed gentleman was accompanied by his assistant. He had dealt roulette for 14 years and was in management for an additional nine. After a little industry chit-chat, I asked him what he thought about dealer’s signature.

“Oh yes indeed, there is something to it. Would you like see a demonstration after we head back?” he offered. “Sure,” I replied. This Director of Gaming with over 23 years expertise is going to show me dealer’s signature first-hand - this is great. He led me over to a booth with what I’m sure was a Huxley Mark 5 wheel. The other exhibitors moved aside as the director stepped behind the table and took control of the wheel.

After two practice spins, he began to call out his target pocket before each ball snap. Not only was this guy demonstrating signature… he was demonstrating ball control. With about half a dozen spins each, he proved proficiency at three different wheel speeds. He seemed anxious to show off his skills. Most times he was able to hit within plus or minus two pockets of his target number and was never more than five pockets away. He showed different ball releases - some snaps were faster than anything I had ever seen before. The ball was falling from the same half of the wheel, but I don’t remember one dominant diamond being struck.

As a crowd began to gather, he quickly wrapped up the show. We continued to talk, off to the side and he told me that skilled croupiers were in demand and even received bonuses. Although he did not comment when I asked what percentage of dealers, he thought possessed these skills, or how these bonuses were paid.

I have never seen such a display of ball control before or after this demonstration, but the experience has always stuck with me. :o


#16

Many high rollers play roulette dealer signature (DS). On some wheels it is achievable (strong tilt and short spin less ball bouncing helps). Reality is that many of them also play it wrongly without full understanding, but then again why to play DS if at least basic rotor adjustment can be included to increase chances or to eliminate some bad spins.

So it is possible that some of them can win that way, sometimes dealer can stuck on a sector “pattern” or stuck in DS. Then casino sends new dealer skilled to drop the ball on opposite side form where the players placing bets.

My friend was a dealer, he could do it and when he was leaving casino they offered him better pay and such kind of job.

I also experienced it. At one table we all were winning, come new dealer but again we were winning , then just after few spins come another one, spinning very short spins and always at opposite side. It wasn’t suitable for FF, I stopped playing with full pockets of chips, but observed the table, and the other guys playing DS were just losing.

Such casino dealers are dangerous for people who play roulette number patterns or dealer signature.
In patterns I do not believe as an advantage play since a roulette player doesn’t know when the pattern will show , how long it will last or when it will end. But the truth is when long patterns happen many people make nice money. I’ve seen pattern around number 29 for about 20 spins, it was a chaos on the table on 28-29 there was no place to place chips. Pit bosses come, dealer tried hard spins, slow, fast rotor slow rotor, he was sweating, but the ball was still ending at same area.

Such dealers are not danger for an advantage player as long if they spin enough ball rotations, but if they are there for a reason they’ll do other stuff to prevent AP.


#17

Any ideas where can be found the book mentioned in the article - “Romeo Project”?


#18

[quote=“sharpshooter, post:15, topic:806”]I believe there is “something” to it, since I witnessed a demonstration by a seasoned professional.

About ten years back, one October at the Annual Las Vegas Gaming Expo, I was working as an exhibitor for casino.com. I had the opportunity to have lunch and speak with the Director of Gaming for a major casino located on one of the smaller Caribbean Islands. This soft spoken, well-dressed gentleman was accompanied by his assistant. He had dealt roulette for 14 years and was in management for an additional nine. After a little industry chit-chat, I asked him what he thought about dealer’s signature.

“Oh yes indeed, there is something to it. Would you like see a demonstration after we head back?” he offered. “Sure,” I replied. This Director of Gaming with over 23 years expertise is going to show me dealer’s signature first-hand - this is great. He led me over to a booth with what I’m sure was a Huxley Mark 5 wheel. The other exhibitors moved aside as the director stepped behind the table and took control of the wheel.

After two practice spins, he began to call out his target pocket before each ball snap. Not only was this guy demonstrating signature… he was demonstrating ball control. With about half a dozen spins each, he proved proficiency at three different wheel speeds. He seemed anxious to show off his skills. Most times he was able to hit within plus or minus two pockets of his target number and was never more than five pockets away. He showed different ball releases - some snaps were faster than anything I had ever seen before. The ball was falling from the same half of the wheel, but I don’t remember one dominant diamond being struck.

As a crowd began to gather, he quickly wrapped up the show. We continued to talk, off to the side and he told me that skilled croupiers were in demand and even received bonuses. Although he did not comment when I asked what percentage of dealers, he thought possessed these skills, or how these bonuses were paid.

I have never seen such a display of ball control before or after this demonstration, but the experience has always stuck with me. :o[/quote]
Wait a minute. I read this in a book somewhere.