Good advice from the web before you buy a RC

Computer devices scams

Inspired by the book ‘The Eudaemonic Pie’ by author Thomas A. Bass, still a couple of computer device sellers are openly operating, advertising and selling on the internet. They all set up sales websites and are regularly present in gambling forums to hustle for customers. In several occasions they were exposed in gambling forums for having posted positive feedback about their own computers but under different nicknames to increase sales. Dissatisfied customers were barked at by one developer when they came forward in the Gambler Glen Forum.

It is rather amusing (and bad for business) computer device sellers do not get along with each other, obviously because they are competitors in the same small market (the customers who would fork out to buy such an expensive device).

The very fact sellers spend an awful lot of time in forums debating their computers is probably the best proof it isn’t likely to work in a real casino environment, otherwise why would one even bother going into endless discussions, but rather travel international casinos in stead to use the device to one’s own benefit instead of spending time selling it. One seller also refused to have his computer seriously tested by researchers for a tv-show because he didn’t want to expose himself. Kind of rare for a person who even sets up a website to promote it’s very existence.

It is however a fact that in previous decennia working computer devices have been reported to successfully predict outcomes with a larger probability than expected, but unfortunately too few, missing or opposing details are know (amount of played spins, initial bankroll, hit-miss ratio, mathematical probability of winning-losing within the time played) to do any serious research. Successful attempts are few and only scarcely documented when it comes to real environment appliance. Of course the public doesn’t get noticed of the attempts which failed due to security detection or failure of the device.

The introduction of the new low profile wheels and scalloped pockets, also significantly increased the amount and variation of scatter which can be expected. Depending on the velocity, the material and weight of the ball and the angle of impact, a ball can scatter, wobble out of the pocket (scalloped pockets) or drop dead.

A common scam is to provide in a live or a DVD demonstration on a very specifically chosen or deep pocket wheel in a home environment. The wheel used for the demonstration could be severely biased or tilted which could only be determined by serious statistical testing by the purchaser BEFORE the seller demonstrates the use of his machine on this particular wheel.
If the wheel is biased (some numbers will naturally appear more than others due to wear of the wheel) or tilted (resulting in the ball leaving the upper track at the same spot, as such making the prediction less hard than on a properly balanced set up wheel which you can expect to find in casinos) and the seller is aware of this, the impression is given to the purchaser the machine is predicting the outcomes, while it’s actually the principal of bias that is at work. One seller even offered (of course paid) betting advice based on a 300 spin file supplied by the customers. This is a scam because a 300 spin file is FAR too short to analyze or advice anything statistically credible what so ever.

Of course, if the seller is convinced of the merits of his machine you as a customer should always demand a demonstration by the seller in a real casino environment. If the seller agrees, pick the wheel yourself when entering the casino. And here comes the first hurdle: the use of such devices is explicitly illegal in the far majority of the venues; as a result detection will lead to confiscation and possible law suite. The correct use of computer devices needs a player who is standing relatively stable and close to the wheel itself, not noticeably tracking the wheel and accurately introducing the data in the hidden device. Bets can only be laid down after the dealer has launched the ball in the very last seconds before the ‘no more bets’ call, because the device needs time to measure the velocity speed of each individual spin. Remember, at all times you are in a heavily security scanned area while pulling this one off. Casino security is aware of the existence of such devices and as such a player who is constantly standing in the same spot, with an earpiece or nervously reaching into his pockets, each time laying down the bets on the very last moment will draw attention of security in no time. If the time is too short between the launch of the ball and the ‘no more bets’ announcement, the prognosis will not be accurate enough. And, when you are dealing with a low profile wheel with scalloped pockets a computer can NEVER predict exactly where the ball might hit a certain pocket resulting in more or less scatter on impact which will downsize the hit-miss ratio. This is the second reason why computer device developers rather like to make money by selling the device, in stead of using it themselves: of course the risk is far less if you make money by selling such a device rather than using it yourself in a real casino environment.

When you would still feel inclined to research this possibility, before cashing out (expensively) ALWAYS demand a demonstration in a real live environment on a wheel you pick yourself, and do never forget it would be impossible in the short run to determine if the seller really has an edge or not. Never pay cash in hand. Always compare the amount of ‘predicted’ hits with the sequential and binomial probability figures. For instance in the short, nor in the medium term achieving a ‘predicted’ hit of one out of 23 doesn’t prove anything what so ever. If you play a certain section or numbers again and again you may well achieve such a result also by chance. In the short run one could only state the obtained result is more or less probable, but even less likely outcomes can occur randomly in the short run. Remember, even when you would not use such a machine, if you lay down your bets on several numbers at each spin, mathematically you’ll get it right sooner or later: a machine is only ‘working’ if it would allow to significantly and consistently achieve a better prediction in outcomes in the long run than only using plain probability theory.

Some customers who light hearted bought such a machine only find out the hard way it was near impossible to use in a real environment or got caught in the process. Of course sellers will try and seduce you by suggesting consistent profit in the future, or will refer to the successful use in a real environment in a few cases of which important details are unknown (initial bankroll amount, amount of bets placed, probability vs ‘predicted’ results, …).

Again, the most reasonable question is: if the machine was working why would a seller invest a large amount of energy setting up a website and spend time seeking customers instead of using it himself and playing himself to riches so he wouldn’t be financially dependent on selling. The fact is: computer device roulette sellers know very well casino security is very strict so it’s far less risky to make money selling such a device rather than using it.

From:
http://www.john-solitude.be/scams.html

It is actually a good article.

"One seller also refused to have his computer seriously tested by researchers for a tv-show because he didn't want to expose himself. Kind of rare for a person who even sets up a website to promote it's very existence."

Wondering who that is?

"One seller even offered (of course paid) betting advice based on a 300 spin file supplied by the customers. This is a scam because a 300 spin file is FAR too short to analyse or advice anything statistically credible what so ever."

This one I know who it is but it used to be 333 spins, he use to explain it as because he found magic numbers in nature.

"Of course, if the seller is convinced of the merits of his machine you as a customer should always demand a demonstration by the seller in a real casino environment. If the seller agrees, pick the wheel yourself when entering the casino."

This doesn’t make any sense. If someone is a player as I am why would I risk to go to show to unknown person anything in casino and take the risk, to make profit of few hundreds from sale.

Burningsides
I believe you are relatively new so I’ll give you some history.
Roulette system reviews was started by Stefano. He pretended to be someone else, used it to discredit Mark Howe. Later on he start attacking me since I asked him publicly at GG to keep his promise and to refund my friend form Croatia who bought his computer.

I got involved with roulette coincidently.
I made E2 and an electronics timer for myself and used it a lot.
When I first time learned to make a web page I didn’t know what to write so I wrote about E2 system. It was for free. In few years hardly anybody contacted me. The web page was hosted on a free web server (just an experiment to see how it works)

One day I come across gamblers glen forum and wrote about E2 system and how I play.
Some people were suspicious.

After some fun posts I said ok I will supply the ZAP to one person who has a wheel and instructions how to use it. He did few hundred spins and it showed something as 1:25 hit rate.
So I made few ZAP’s for some people and sold it for $150.

I didn’t come to market and said; hey I have miracle computer buy it from me.

I started myrulet.com with forum, some people joined and we decided to work on a roulette computer, that’s how first FFZ was created. For the FFA roulette computer (talking) people send me money to make it before then I actually made it.

I do not chase na ¯ve people sending them emails buy, buy, buy… trying to convince them it can be as a full time job then call them idiots if they complain as some other sellers do. I do not make manipulative videos to make wrong impression, I do nto give empty promises just to sell. I do not own 50 web pages and forums and use it to trap people. I prefer to supply it to people who already know something and already playing roulette.

In support forums section there is a survey for all users, and some data I published at myrulet site.
Form that you can see that things are not so great but you can also see that none of them said the FF is a scam or that they found better roulette computers, even many of them have few different ones.
Even if there is better, I do not care, for me it would be less time consuming therefore and cheaper if I buy somewhere else good RC.

I still agree with what Solitude writes regardless FF or any other computer, it is a good explanation.

Burningsides that was a very interesting passage, and would like to hear more from you in regards to the concealment of such devices in casinos and the possibilites of getting caught. I would also like to vouch for everything Forester said.its clear to people who have stayed long enough on this forum that Forester is a honest man, and his type is rare. Although i dont blame some people who initially come here and have been scammed before to believe that this is too good to be true because Forester chooses to share his knowledge with us.

Hi forester, yup, im relatively new :smiley:
prompt reply,
Few questions here

  1. how does FF measure the ball decaying orbit to the point where it drops?
  2. Are you clocking ball against a selected diamond or number?
  3. How does the rc determine the number of the rotor passing by while clocking the ball, doesn’t the person need to clock rotor at the same time?

And Hi gambler
I don’t think we dealers or even the pit supervisor bother to check patrons behavior unless he is pointing something at the wheel or only starting to place bets after we announce nmb. we really hate patrons betting 4 or 5 bets after nmb, but normally we will allow if the balls still have about 4 revolutions.

As for conceal devices. i really do not know what the survelliance team is using to detect them. as far as i know some casinos have a frequencies detector to detect radio waves or whatever waves. but are they effective enough to track to specific individuals, that i do not know.

anyway, if a patron is not greedy, and retreat after winning a few grand, i believe no one will be suspicious.

JS is from Belgium,

SOME of his articals are very good and interesting,but he is borderline scammer :o

1) how does FF measure the ball decaying orbit to the point where it drops? 2) Are you clocking ball against a selected diamond or number? 3) How does the rc determine the number of the rotor passing by while clocking the ball, doesn't the person need to clock rotor at the same time?

It depends which FF roulette computer or which revision of program.
In usual it is clocking ball revolutions and letting the system know how the ball slows down.
We call it unlimited. It is a good way for tilted wheel and multiple predictions during same spin as the FFA can give. It means the player can easy predict at earlier times during the spin without any additional settings. With multiple predictions during the same spin he can also check quality of systems prediction on a particular wheel.

Some programs were more precised for levelled wheel, learning how the ball deceleration at one point during the spin, then using it in combination with clocked ball times to cancel clocking errors. Very accurate but predict only at specific ball speed range.

Viper mode lets the player hear the time of particular rotation in resolution of one millisecond, then they can set time frame
The ball is clocked against diamond so the system gets times of full ball rotations.
Rotor is clocked earlier.

With talking computers (you can see it on videos around net) the player clocks zero at same position where they going to clock the ball, when the rotor makes rotation they clock it again so the system gets time of rotors rotation. (or half rotor clocking)
From that moment the system has to calculate rotor movement to the moment of prediction then based on the ball speed to the moment when the ball drops.

So no, the player doesn’t have to click at same time rotor and ball. On some videos I’ve seen Mark H. was doing it with one click when zero arrives to diamond, I believe it was only to inline rotor with ball since form moment of clocking rotor until ball was clocked the calculation might have some errors.

FFZ or FFV are much smarter designed in that field. The rotor rotation can be clocked at any time or at any position with no difference to accuracy. That’s why many people like it because it adds to flexibility, often needed when using the system far away from kitchen table. Also such approach cuts on rotor clocking errors.

Viper mode lets the player hear the time of particular rotation in resolution of one millisecond, then they can set time frame The ball is clocked against diamond so the system gets times of full ball rotations. Rotor is clocked earlier.

I saw from the videos that the clicks on the ball are done every time it passes a selected diamond. so do you mean that the rotor is already clock on the earlier spin?

If clocking on the rotor was done separately on the previous spin, how about the dealer varies the rotor speed during the next game when the user is clicking the ball?

Is it correct to say that measurement of the rotor and the ball should be done at the same time because both are not constant factor? ???

[quote=“Burningsides, post:7, topic:667”]

Viper mode lets the player hear the time of particular rotation in resolution of one millisecond, then they can set time frame
The ball is clocked against diamond so the system gets times of full ball rotations.
Rotor is clocked earlier.

I saw from the videos that the clicks on the ball are done every time it passes a selected diamond. so do you mean that the rotor is already clock on the earlier spin?

If clocking on the rotor was done separately on the previous spin, how about the dealer varies the rotor speed during the next game when the user is clicking the ball?

Is it correct to say that measurement of the rotor and the ball should be done at the same time because both are not constant factor? ???[/quote]

FFV/FFZ measures wheelspeed every spin.

FFV/FFZ measures wheelspeed every spin

In that case if FFA separates rotor measurement and ball measurement into different spins, then logically the previous rotor speed cannot be used in the next spins because there are no correlation, we cannot assume the dealer will turn the wheel with the same force, even if he trys, there may be slight variaitions (correct me if i am wrong)

Then if FFZ and FFV measures ball and wheel at the same time, there should be two clickings (one for rotor and one for the ball)at the preselected diamond right? or at least the passing ball is clicked when it passes a selected number, not a selected diamond right?

Lastly, The casino investiagtes FF article by survtech posted on 13 mar 2008, conclude by

Time will tell if there is a viable threat to modern well-maintained roulette wheels but at this stage the FF device is not it.

then on 28 mar 2008, a further posting with more test results conclude by

The device has not shown that it has sufficient, if any, predictive capabilities to overcome the other factors, which govern the final result after successful strike-point prediction against a wheel with random ball exit-point characteristics

This is a FFZ or FFV right?

then other testings were done on FFA and the conclusion posted on 12 May 2009 was

This device is capable of providing its operator with a significant advantage under varying conditions unless consideration is given to the ball behavior after it enters the rotor

The thing i do not undertand was how can ffa be better than ffz or ffv when ffa measures rotor separately from ball deceleration :o

Or is the test on ffa being done on a machine turning wheel in one single direction with a constant speed? then it is not a realistic casino environment…

All systems have same principles of prediction, same program calculation just the way how predicted number is indicated to the player is different.

All systems take rotor time and ball times for each spin individually therefore we do not assume the dealer will turn the wheel with the same force.

Then if FFZ and FFV measures ball and wheel at the same time, there should be two clickings (one for rotor and one for the ball)at the preselected diamond right?

The FF first measures rotor then ball for each spin, for every spin but not at same time.

or at least the passing ball is clicked when it passes a selected number, not a selected diamond right?

No that way we wouldn’t know if rotor or ball changes speed.

Survtech first bought the FFZ to test it for casinos and to give report.

He din’t have problem testing it at on a wheel with common ball drop point but levelled wheel testing he did on a brand new roulette wheel never used.

Simply the wheels specification how ball decelerates was below FFZ’s limit. He couldn’t get predictions better than 20 %. The system couldn’t properly form the ball deceleration curve for that wheel. Later on the apologised for that since I clearly specified what was the lowest ball deceleration the system could handle at that time.

Anyway the FFZ got fixed to have wider range and roulette computer FFA was made, that’s why his next review was positive. From that time many more things have been changed.

According to Survtech someone who is not happy with computer as FF

  1. Expect too much.
  2. Don’t have the brains or the discipline to look for beatable conditions.
  3. Think that a computer is a magic box that will change their lives.

And I agree.

Hi forester,
im still trying to understand the statement

All systems take rotor time and ball times for each spin individually therefore we do not assume the dealer will turn the wheel with the same force
The FF first measures rotor then ball for each spin, for every spin but not at same time.

The wheel turn and the ball spin are unique in every game, so in theory they have to be measured in the same spin, correct? (for example the rumoured ritz team used so called lazer scanner that can measure wheel and ball at the same time…i don’'t know if there is SUCH A DEVICE, but the idea that both the varibles are measured at the same time make sense a lot.

So if i understand the operation of the FF correctly, the rotor and the ball are measured in the same spin right?

I found this information on a rc website, is that how FF works too…

PHASE 1 - TAKING SAMPLES:
The computer of course needs to know the deceleration of a particular wheel and ball (not just the detected speed for single spins) so before actual play mode, you must take timings of sample revolutions of the wheel and ball. You can enter the sample revolution timings manually, or simply click the button to take timings. Firstly, you sample the wheel deceleration by clicking the button each time the wheel’s zero passes any reference diamond (any diamond around the circumference of the wheel) - you do this for as many revolutions as you like. Secondly, on a separate spin, you click the button every time the ball passes any reference diamond - you also do this for as many revolutions as you like. Now the computer has sets of data - the computer then uses complex algorithms to determine the deceleration curve of the wheel and ball - it is not merely a matter of a deceleration “rate”, so the algorithms must be precise and account for real-life curves. Importantly, the actual “curve” is different for every wheel because no two wheels are alike - this is one of the many things other roulette computers do not account for, therefore contributing to making predictions from simplistic computer less accurate. The “ball drop speed” is determined automatically and relevant data pertaining to the drop are tuned progressively during play mode - i.e. the more you play, the more accurate predictions become.

PHASE 2 - TESTING SAMPLE ACCURACY:
At this point, you can opt to test the accuracy of sample timings. To conduct the test, the user simply clicks the button 2 or more times (depending on user settings) to determine the speed of the wheel or ball during any given spin. The computer will then give audible beeps or sharp vibration pulses at the precise moment the ball is predicted to fall. Depending on whether or not the roulette computer user is satisfied with the accuracy, they can opt to return to phase 1, or continue to phase 3.

PHASE 3 - PLAY MODE:
This is where you actually start to win at roulette consistently. Once the wheel is spun, to actually make a prediction, the roulette computer user needs to select one specific diamond (or other static reference point) around the circumference of the wheel. The user then clicks the button once when the wheel’s zero passes the reference diamond [first click], and once more when the wheel’s zero passes the reference diamond again [second click]. Now at any time, the roulette computer user clicks the button again [third click] when the ball passes the same reference diamond, and again when the ball passes the reference diamond again [fourth and final click]. The prediction is then instantly relayed to the player who then places their bets. In this example, only 4 clicks are used. However up to 6 clicks in total may be used for predictions - the more clicks that are used, the more accurate the predictions are. Once the ball has landed, after a series of prompts either by vibration or earpiece, the user can enter into the computer which number the ball landed on (see also Roulette Computer Audio Demo). If a number is entered, the computer automatically tunes so that future predictions are more accurate.

Yes that’s how the clocking is done.
FFA in addition can check linearity of ball deceleration curve by getting prediction few times during a single spin and comparing if results are same or shifting. Knowing that it is ok they can confidently bet at any moment during the spin and expect same result regardless is it 5 or 10 rotations before then ball drops…

With all the other computers I know players are blind in that way.

What he describes in Part 2 each computer I know have, but often it may not be enough to be able to predict at any time and to have a confidence in it.
I introduced new multiple predictions after each ball rotation clocked long time ago. It is very useful but to be able to have it the computer needs to be very accurate in timings other way it may be embarrassment for a seller.

Also clocking rotor and ball at same diamond doesn’t relate to FFZ, since it has more flexibility.
For levelled predictions the ball can be clocked at any place, same as rotor and completely different from each other. For tilt rotor can be clocked at any place but the ball has to be clocked at position we set the system.
Clocking rotor when it’s in any position is very useful flexibility in real play, but talking computers can’t have it.

OK, got it finally :smiley:
rotor and ball are measured in the same spin----rotor first follow by ball.

For levelled predictions the ball can be clocked at any place, same as rotor and completely different from each other. For tilt rotor can be clocked at any place but the ball has to be clocked at position we set the system.

for FFA, both the ball and rotor must use the same diamond
for FFZ/V the rotor and the ball can be measured using different diamonds…

does it mean that, for FFZ/V, if i choose diamond 1 for rotor measurement, and after their clicks, i can choose another diamond for ball? and irregardless of the diamonds chosen, the results would be constant?
is that the flexibility you mention?

Finally, i am still pondering over the the advantages and setbacks of FFA and FFZ
Voice output is really a godsend, observing the number when a zap occurs require a lot of concentration which make the gameplay heavy…and the jumps would need to manually compute in the head too correct? but on the other side, the FFV really seem promising…headache :’(

It is pretty easy to see the number when you get the zap. Newer program as I understand it gives you 3 zaps so that you can confirm the first. Personally I think one zap is enough. I have never had problems with that.

Only advantage I can think of with ‘voice’ is that you don’t have to look at the wheel when waiting for prediction. Then again FFV/FFZ much less conspicuous. I would personally be too worried with an earpiece induction loop etc. That’s just me though.