Card Counting VS Visual Ballistics

Hi everyone, it only occured to me recently, but ive come to realize the monolithic difference for the Advantage player between a roulette AP and Blackjack AP. I personally know how to card count, however I am no where near as good as many proffesionals, some who are able to keep side counts of many of the individual numbers that come out of the shoe.

Anyways, what ive realized is that the average roulette players edge over the casino can be even higher then 20-30%, compared to the average blackhack players edge of about 1-2% AT MOST. This difference is HUGE, which triggers me to think why roulette AP is not as widely known as blackjack advantage play, heck theres been books and movies made about card counting left right and centre about blackjack, but none about roulette. I believe that if one were to truly dedicate himself to visual ballistics and train hard, over time he or she could make a comfortable living from roulette by travelling around the world. Althouhg some conditions are unfavourable, im sure that a highly trained roullete AP would be able to take on some of these conditions.

Another thing ive realized is that VB is much more difficult then card counting, as card counting requires only conenentration from the player and possibly a good memory. Roulette VB is extremely demanding, requiring the player to know the wheel and board left right and centre, with the player needing the ability to firstly

-pick out a good wheel. -Decide whether the roter is a constant speed. - Make prediction/pocket adjustments to the wheeles slight change in speed. -PREDICT the sector. - Add the possible scatter from prevoius analysed data, and this is ALL in one spin, one wrong move and there goes your edge, with the possibility of giving the casino an even higher edge then the original 2.7-5.4%. And thats only the analytical part, next you have to know the board inside out, and be able to place a large amount of bets in a short space of time. All this adds up to be a VERY DIFFICULT skill to master.

My conclusion so far to roulette VB is that the reason why many people find it difficult, or are unsucessful is because the amount of training required is monolific, HUGE, with the player having to have a natural skill and flare for the game alot of dedication and undestanding, as well as playin with NO ERRORS at all. Not to mention having the ability to WALK AWAY wwhen he is winning, so that he doesnt attract attention to himself =P

Very nice post! :slight_smile:
It is good that you need to have a wide knowledje about AP.

I would like to highlight something though…

The Knowledje of VB can be gained.
The skills in VB can be develeped.
These are the easy part of the VB.

The most hard part is the PATIENCE and the CAMO that is needed in order to find and explore the correct wheels that are giving the advantage!

In my opinion also there can t be a succesfull and long term play if we don t have a team.

The team will provide to us 5 things.

1)More confortable searching because the time will be splited in 2 or 3 or 4 players and not just 1.
2)FAster searching because the time will be splited in 2 or 3 or 4 players and not just 1.
3)Camo in placing the bets so it allows us to play more time at the table(the 1 is looking at the wheel and the other one or 2 are betting)
4)Camo in searching and exploring the wheels because the Casino surviliance will not be noticing-recording just 1 person that is looking inside a wheel for a lot of spins…If the work will be splited the casino is getting confused and it can t have a clear picture of what is happening and more important of what IS GOING TO HAPPEN ;D
5)Last but not least the team play can provide a larger BR that is vital in overcoming the fluxuations of the game.

I would put the abilities of successful VB more in the
range of shuffle tracking or sequenzig if you compare.

There is a difference in the kind of game and the abilities
an AP needs.
A counter and a sequencer must have a very good and fast memory,specially a sequencer, he should remember
during the game about 30 cards in increments of 2 cards in his head.
I do that.
counting eigther with Indices or sidecounts is like bikeryding.

shuffletracking I would compare most with VB.

IMHO all the Blackjacktechnics someone could learn,
if he is very busy.So he could be successful.

With VB I am not so sure in the moment, it’s very hard for me.
Ok scouting good conditions, analysing the wheel-ball
combinations is to manage.
The work of eyes and brain together at VB to see everything what’s necessary to make money is a bigger
problem than at BJ.

Many things are equal like to be no gambler but AP,
bankroll management, understand and use the Kelly Criterion, avoid heat, camo.

The best someone has both abilities, but travelling
to the "candy stores"is expensive.


An other thing , holecarding or frontloading at blackjack
I would compare wih VB .

Only counting I don’t like becaust the small gain of 1-2%
and inevitable an AP that plays much and long would
come into big flux, in 10 years of counting there are 1-2
years where you are in hole and have to struggle to come
out, with a small RoR you come out no doubt.


“”“in 10 years of counting there are 1-2
years where you are in hole and have to struggle to come
out, with a small RoR you come out no doubt.”""

This can also happen with VB :smiley:

All depends of how much you will search to find the best possible advantage wheel

I have had a good chat with guy who made few millions playing black jack.
When he was young and playing with no knowledge he was losing.
One day he met nice older couple and they introduced him to card counting.
After that he played and wasn’t not losing but not winning as well.
He learned from one guy card shuffling and finally start winning.

He says with card shuffling the advantage can be bigger than 1% more likely 10%.
Since he was banned in many casinos to play BJ he started to learning roulette.
He bought few system (advantage play) and lost more than 100k.

He found about E2 and made a timer by himself. With that he wasn’t losing but he didn’t win as well.
He bought the FFZ one of first versions, used it and was winning tens of thousands per visit. (playing larger units)

He found it very hard, struggling to place chips on time and dangerous since he was already well known player. All money he won from BJ he smartly invested in to business, (wealthy man) he didn’t want to risk to get caught with FF.

Smart person to start hes own bussines as me.
Running small bussines now and will expand.
AP is a hobby and on my last visit i made 1K and is not much or anything to brag about - i just see it simple - continue to do what you like and enjoy as long you not are losing.
Sure there is a learning curve for everything - but a smart person invest in building hes own bussines.

Counting alone is not enough one must be able to play the basic strategy perfect in every single hand. When the deck is packed with high cards there are high probabilitys for Black Jacks for all players including the dealer. The player gets paid 3:2 but the dealer only 1:1 so to speak. So there is definitely an advantage also the dealer must hit all the stiffs like 12 13, 14, 15, 16 which aint disereable if the deck is packed with 10s, here the player can choose to stand. When you see shuffle tracking and sequensing discrebed im pretty sure learning VB is a notch easyer to master in real life. Not saying it is easy though.

VB has contra BJ many variables in each spin where one can make a mistake and remove the advantage where in BJ all you have to do is following the basic strategy + all the finer aspects like insurance and doubles, with higher bets when the count is favourable and the money will in the longer run start piling up in your end.

If you can play your VB as solid as a BJ basic strategy, you should be good on your way.

Hi Kelly ,
nice to read.

Where to find the Basic Strategy is easy,
at :,

Where to find how to manage to be successful with
VB , the finer points, much harder, don’t know.

The best E.H.

In the BJ if he doesn’t arrive to a certain depth in the shoe it is not gotten to play with advantage.This they also know the country house.

I would forget about BJ and go all in for VB.
Easy no - but with some basic knowledge parts will become more clear as time pass by.
Ballistics is not like getting a complete roulette system in your hands - its more about deep knowledge and skills based upon experience and collected data.


guys, my name is warren and i just recently joined here, about an hour before my post here. I recently came to this crossing in my life as to which path to take to make money with the casino. firstly my inspirations, just so you know where i am coming from. I wanted to learn card counting after watching the blackjack film 21 and then doing research about the MIT team and watching different documentarys on the subject, then roulette inspiration came from derren brown after that casino takedown episode, now i am sure there are ppl here argueing both sides of the coin about what he did was authentic or not. personally i believe he had the skill but being one of is to close to being lucky. I always believe we are made the same so if one person can do it so can another, if he puts in the time. But i am glad to find someone posting about the article, helps new ppl like me, knowing that my mindset is not alone. But where can i learn about Visual Ballistics? I was going to read and memorise loads of different math and physics books, but if there is a more direct approach then all help is greatly appreciated. thank you once again for this forum and the ppl that make it work

Well, I’m going to get killed here. But I think that any mention of Derren Brown and AP/VB in the same sentence is is an insult. I don’t buy any of his “Skills” as legitimate. If you watch his stuff you will notice a few key components that should spell out rather clearly that the guy is full of it. It the Roulette example,

  • There is never a continuous shot when he starts shooting in the casino to when he leaves after the outcome.
  • There is NEVER a conversation by phone or earpiece to ANYONE outside of the supposed “Casino” to prove that the shot is live and NOT prerecorded. I think it is prerecorded and any idiot can take any number of attempts to hit one number and get it right on or 'one off" on dumb luck alone (the odds of hitting a number or either neighbor is 1:12.333 on a European wheel)
  • Also (and here is where I might get killed) I don’t think that just anyone can just walk up to a roulette table and change out 5K let alone bet 5K straight up without causing some kind of commotion in the pit. 5K straight up is an extremely aggressive bet to make in any casino and with how easily he did it without any real delays from the dealer or pit boss seems kinda suspect. I’ve never really seen a game with a limit of 5K on the inside anyway. However, I have never been to Europe ever and only speak from experience in North American casinos.

As for VB, I find it funny that the people who seem to be giving the most advice tend to be doing so more on speculation than real world experience. Having said that, take what you read here with a grain of salt especially considering most posters are at best part time players.

Before Derren Browns roulette attempt
He said
this is how I play my rulet 8)
The wheel looked very predictable and myrulet ff would give him what he got.
Was it a pathological mistake or just a coincidence who knows?
But yes 5k on a single bet is a bit odd.

I still say the shot wasn’t live. The guy is a film maker, nothing more.

Regarding derren brown he did a stunt where he took on various chess players including GM’s and IM’s. The guy is talented and he subsequently won the match by a point. How he did the roulette thing it is not my place to speculate but in the chess challenge it was not his superior play but memory which won the challenge as he had simulaneous games running e.g had one player playing another so he had to remember the moves of each game to play in sequence as he rotatated between players, done correctly the outcome is level points to both sides. It was a trick tried around 100 years before but the two former chess champions didnt fall for it. How he beat the weakest player but still an IM to win the game is another matter?

I doubt it would be worth arguing he has a unique brain with advanced memory but to the VB players would that give a better chance at the roulette wheel?

Black Jack is sure a fun way of AP , and simple quick techniques are easy to learn ,if your comfortable with it, then why not

firstly learn the high lo count ,just google it ,and as Kelly pointed out a firm knowledge of the basic stratergy is needed,although you need to tweek it on the cuff as it,as be sticking to it to the letter will decrease your edge

Here he is with the famuos Paul Wilson (the great Scottish Gamblig expert) and no davey thats not me ,although his accent is similar

he did study VB for the show , as youl see here

Derren Brown and Paul Wilson

and for the record Davey Jones knows jack shit :stuck_out_tongue:

hey Dave ,you a Father yet?

Here ,this may give you some insparation,as youll see,it aint that hard to count cards

How to Count Cards using Hi-Lo

Here it is in practice

The Real Hustle - Casino Black Jack Scam

And for your entertainment, Paul Wilson in action, these btw are what I call REAL card tricks,come on pick a card :wink:

Paul Wilson from The Real Hustle

Maybe to someone this interests: