# New member and tilted wheel

Hi all!

Well, no place for new members to introduce themselfs so I’ll do it here.

Andrej, Croatia…

Well, I see most of the discussion here is about tables with live crupie, but, here I quite often play on automatic tables. They have wheel covered with transparent plastic and ball is spun by machine.

I was observing many of them and I found one that is or tilted or very precise. I used stopwatch and noticed that exactly 25.5secs (+/- 0.05secs) takes for ball to hit one (same) diamond. After that ball travels about 1/4 of a turn before hitting wheel.
Also even with high ball speed (about 2sec for 3 revolutions) I could notice difference and say when will such spin happen.

Could someone give me some suggestion how to determine in what position wheel will be when ball contacts it? Wheel can have variation in speed in moment ball is fired… I thought about charting initilal wheel speed vs number of revolutions but would prefer not having chart with me…

Many thnx

best regards

Andrej

Since you have no reply yet, I could give you my simple thoughts.

First, It would be interesting to know more about those automatic roulette tables. Can you see a name of the manufacturer or something? Are they inside a casino or in a pub or what? How much can one bet at once? Are they slot machines? How late is “no more bets” called? How does the wheel speed vary? Just any information like that, because machines like that offer an interesting potential. I have searched for an internet casino with live roulette wheel, so one could make extensive observations from home. But the only casinos with live roulette movies which I have found, require bets to be placed before the ball is spun. I suppose that this is not the case with your machines.

I would suggest a bit of programming. Maybe on a programmable phone or a pocket PC, or on a Basic Stamp for the ambitious. The computer should have a button for input and some form of simple output, either a vibration or a beep soound. The device could be in your pocket with your finger on the button.

Maybe Forester can offer you a nice solution by adapting one of his roulette computers?

When the ball is spun, you make one click on the computer button. Now the program starts measuring the time. In 25,5 seconds the ball will hit that diamond. Now you need to time the wheel speed.

When the zero passes that diamond, you make another klick on the button. (I say zero, because it is green and easier to spot more accurately, I suppose). The program notes this point in time. Next time the zero passes the same point, the diamon, you click again. Now the program knows how long time it took for the wheel to complete one revolution and hence the speed of the wheel.

Consider this example:

Time: Event:
0s Click for ball spun, game starts, 25.5 s to impact with diamond.
2s Click for zero making 1st pass by that diamond.
5s Click for zero making 2nd pass by that diamond.

Now there remains 20.5 seconds to impact.
Wheel speed is 5-2 = 3 seconds per revolution.
The wheel will make 20.5/3 = 6.83 revolutions until the ball hits that diamond. This means that the number one sixth (60 degrees) before the zero will be under that diamond at impact (0.83 = 5/6 after the zero, ewuals 1/6 before the zero). Say that is number 16 red.

The computer signals this to you by sounding a beep or making a vibration when number 16 passes by that diamond. It could make that signal for each revolution of the wheel. I.e. when you hear the beep, the number at the diamond will be under the diamond again when the ball hits that diamond.

This was a simple version described. Several adjustments could be done for better predictions. For example, you could continue to click the button each time the zero passes by that diamond. This would have several advantages:

1. Human timing errors would be reduced by averaging multiple clicks.
2. The later the wheel speed is measured, the less time will measurement errors have to grow.
3. The program could take the decceleration of the wheel into account.

You will notice how the computer changes its prognosis as you update it with new clicks. If predictions are not fairly stable, you could avoid making a bet that game, because maybe some measurement went wrong.

Another thing to consider is that the scatter, the average distance which the ball will jump once it impacts with the wheel, will vary (increase I suppose) with the speed of the wheel. You have ovserved an average scatter of 1/4 of the wheel. It should be shorter when the wheel is slow, and longer when the wheel is fast.

The program could account for this because it knows the speed of the wheel. But it needs statistical inputs about how the scatter depends on the wheel speed. Then the computer should send a signal when the predicted number passes by that diamond, i.e. it should tell you directly which number to bet on (together with neighbouring numbers).

Further still, maybe it could be a good idea to time the speed of the ball more carefully by making clicks for its revolutions too. This makes things more complicated and starts looking alot like you need Foresters device more or less as it is.

Overall, I think that you have a nice opportunity with that tilted machine. You could even take advantage of machines without tilt, but a ball which hits the same diamond each time, that is very nice! It would be very interesting to hear how this works out for you.

EDIT:
Okey, I misunderstood the 1/4, it is not average scatter, but distance between diamond impacted and wheel impacted. So this 1/4 is independant of wheel speed. However, this is not important for the concept I’ve outlined above.

Hi! Thnx for reply!

Well, I wen to play again and seems like machine is not tilted so much as mechanism that fires the ball can get not random.

Another time after my post I went to play on same table and this time other diamond was dominant. Last time it was quite random in my opinion.

Some links with tables I’m talking about,

http://www.zvonimir.biz/king/highclass.html
http://www.euromat-roulette.com/products.htm

They claim results on those machines is completly random.

Few more thoughts…

• Well, more or less I thought aboput some program that will do as you said.
• Now, from my mesurements, wheel speed is from 2.2-2.8secs. Also in about 10 spins it makes it does not slow down noticably. But how to make sure my mesurements are OK.
• Ball is quite a problem, first 3 spins usualy take less than 2secs.
• Also, no more bets is quite early. I would not bet on more that about 5-8ses from moment ball is fired, sometimes you have no time at all…
• Good thing, on those machines is that ball is fired from same position every time.

Some theory… and I’m not sure how to put it in calculation.

Well, considering forces on a ball its movenent has two parts, first, when because of high speed it makes spins on a rim and when it looses speed it will spiral down toward the wheel where it meets with one of the diamonds.
So second part should be always the same and should take same time and number of spins every time. First part is depentant on speed ball is fired at.

What I wonder about is, does it matter, or it can be linearised?
My opinion that total time of a sipin can be crutial to determine what diamont will ball touch and also to determine position of a wheel in that moment.

What I’m not sure about, is is it possible at all, sometime I doubt as so many factors are in game that it seems impossible, quite small mistake in timing can result in complete miss… maby it is easier on live tables where game is slower and you have much more time to put bets…

And one more thing, I’m I wrong with my thoughts that time should be used to determine first diamond touched and than add ofset to that to get final result, or one could just go for total time it takes ball to make contact with wheel and try to determine that time somehow and according to that wheel position eg. final result??? I wonder about that because small deviation in time can result in wrong diamond prediction and going directly for the touch with wheel seems less prone to mistake… What are your thoughts, or what you use in your predictions??

Huh, enought… hope this will start some interesting discussion

Best luck to all,

Andrej

Playing roulette is full time job and school.
It is not only prediction it is more then that.
No matter how accurate computer/prediction we have there are always additional factors that require lot of knowledge.
I will list some.
…as I recently published in development forum even if we have 100% accurate prediction based on ball speed final result can be far from that. Simply the ball with same speed will not travel same distance all the time. How much from that 100% it is reduced its dependent where in time prediction is done. Tilted wheel has some advantages but disadvantages as well. Because of that ball can create additional revolution which will be disaster on faster wheel. I am not talking here about occasional mistakes but very high chance.
Ball bouncing is wider, caused by higher differences in speed when ball has impact with diamond. Position of impact on diamond is wider as well, which combined with different ball speed on mostly used balls creates very wider scatter. It is very hard to define where is breaking point in between let’s say 4 and 5 spins to the end.

…very fast rotor may change total traveling distance. I assume it is dependant on rotor design and how much air turbulence is created. Scatter may change as well.

… Improperly leveled rotor with frame may cause many balls turn in to spinners.

…impact /wobbling table from lot of heavy weight players trying to place bets while ball is spinning.

… Deformations on ball track

…to short spins, where ball can still backspin while we measure it

…automated tables rotor is driven by motor which may change speed during same spin

……etc