Ball type and its effect on scatter

mikemcbain and PJ in another thread agreed that a large ball is better for prediction (which means that it gives a narrower scatter distribution, I assume), than a small ball. This surprises me.

I thought that a smaller ball came to rest earlier. The large ball has its center of gravity far above the edges of the pockets, which makes it more instable. The pocket walls hit the large ball more from below, while a small ball has easier to get deeper down into the pockets and is hit more heads on by the walls. To some degree, a larger ball size should have a similar effect as does lower pocket walls.

That was my assumption, and I can swear that I’ve seen people argue that point before. If experience proves otherwise, that a larger ball indeed gives narrower scatter, then I’d happy to see that clarified here. And if possible, an explanation as why this is so. Maybe it the weight of the ball, proportional to its size of course, that “outweights” the effect of its size?

It also depends on the ball material. In the old Hamburg casino, they sometimes used some extremely small “nylon like” balls that went all over the place when they hit the rotor, until they got caught by the frets. Your theory is correct though, but the ball material has an enormous impact.
Mike probably refers to the older heavyer teflon balls that just dropped and stopped, even on the Starburst seperators.

Yeah, a solid teflon ball is pretty heavy. And given enough density, it is possible that bigger is better, because it means heavier.

A billiard ball wouldn’t bounce much…

Hello Everybody! :slight_smile:

This is my first time in this forum.
As Ive benn working in casinos for 15 years in 5 different countries and some cruise lines and visiting many-many other casinos I can say that casinos are using mainly(!) 4 different type of balls! Plastic(white) small or big and ivory(yellow) small or big.Naturally the big ones are havier, but intrestingly the same size but different material ones are pretty much the same weight! The ivory ones are much harder, sometimes they bouncing around the half of the rotor!! So, by my experiences the scatter would the biggest with the small ivory one, too big with the big ivory one, better with the small plastic one and the best with the big plastic one! I havent tried the device yet, but definitely i`m going to focus to the big plastic balls!
So, the size really does matter and the material too!! ;D

Hello krupie and welcome!

Did you ever try to hit particular area on the wheel?

Welcome Krupie and note how Forester gets straight to the important point! ;D ;D ;D

Opss! :o Damn it! >:( I just signed in two days ago and Im in trouble already?! :o :o :o I dont like to lie, but sometimes its hard to say the truth. I did! I had to! May God forgive me for my sins! And You too Guys! ;) It was a certian dark age in my casino carrier about 10-12 years ago when I used to work in Israel. In those illegal, underground places was chased by the police sometimes twice a day! I saw guns,(once even a machine gun) drogs, call girls and illegal gambling at same time same place. During police raids I jumped out twice through the window from the second level just meters away from police guys, but several times I was caught too and once I was deported from the country too! So, the bosses overthere were mostly maffia-membres or related to them! Many times the police was involved too, but seriuosly guys!, do not tell this to anyone! ;D ;D So, the point is in order to keep my job and my good health I had to do my best! Dont worry those high rollers were criminals, or semi-criminals too :wink:
So, back to the point:
I realised that with certian wheels I can target about half of rotor(tier+orphs or voisen,right side or left of the rotor) with 70-80% accuracy of clear spins!

Clear spins means no bouncing around too much(plastic ball), especially no bouncing backwards and no spinning on the rim of the rotor!
That time I didnt know anything about tilted wheels, but these wheels were certianly tilted ones, because than I tried to do it with other wheels too, but results became totally randomly, so I stopped to do things like this.Shame on me anyway!! Hey Guys!! DO NOT EVER-EVER go to illegal-shady places to play! Promise me! 8) They are not afraid of losing their licence, cos they don`t have any!! Of course they going to cheat!! >:( >:(
Anyway, there should be a topic or two how the casinos can cheat against the players! :o
Maybe later…

God bless You all! :-*

(once even a machine gun) drugs, call girls and illegal gambling at same time same place.

Gee Krupie don’t encourage Forester with comments like this he might think he was in Roulette heaven! ;D

Seriously though we used to have places like this in Australia before Casino’s were legalised, I had a couple of frights in them myself, including meeting a nice barman in Kings Cross Sydney who had also jumped out of a second floor window to escape some drug crazed crims and badly broke both legs. I could tell you lots of stories but some of my very nice young friends are descendants of the mafia in Aust and in fact one is now a Qld Politician…perhaps not much different?


That was interesting experience.
I wouldn’t expect illegal casinos in Israel.

Here is some analysis of Bob’s video … both the large ball and the small ball… the #1 in the 3rd column of each indicates that the results clockwise from that point are dramatically higher than their mathematical expectation… as you can see it shows that a tremendous advantage can be obtained if you are able to identify the number beneath the ball at the time of impact with a vertical diamond… it shows beyond any shadow of doubt that once the impact is determined and the number identified beneath that impact point THEN THE RESULTS ARE NO LONGER RANDOM… It clearly shows that the scatter behaviour between large and small balls have their own distinctive pattern… however there is a significant overlap between the two scatter behaviours and that overlap is at positions +10 to +17 from the impact point for both large and small balls… I trust this will encourage some interesting discussion…

By the way… does anybody know what Bob’s balls are made of…???


Is that from diamond until the ball stops?
I would like to see from rotor hit until ball stops because it is more related to FF’s prediction.


Yes… it is from first diamond strike… not from first rotor impact… I will dig deeper and get you your rotor impact scatter… it will definitely be more concentrated and therefore yield higher success… however I do not see how the time of impact with the rotor is able to be calculated with consistency because of the many varied behaviours after the ball impacts with a diamond… but I will dig the stats out for you and present it…


As I said to Barnett.
The diamond is only obstacle on the balls path to predicted stopping point.
We do not know where the diamond exactly will cross that path.
It could happen at x point or x minus (zero to nine pockets + rotor change for that time)
We can say it can happen with deviation of about 12 pockets.
Since we have prediction where the ball should fail on the rotor if diamond happens to be 12 pockets earlier it is most likely that it will be hit to very top part which will cause the ball to travel 8-10 pockets until hits the rotor. If diamond position is later the ball will hit the diamond at lower part reducing 8-10 to 2-3 pockets. But also and angle how the ball is hitting rotor is different. So possible deviation of 12 packets is not any more 12, but more likely < 6.

Most accurate data would be if we observe the ball from point where is just going to come inline with diamond highest part. It is hard to estimate right point, long time ago Brian did such chart with some success.

Imagine this.
FF predicts zero
The ball just passes the diamond almost touching it at #5. Then travels to next one that is extra 9 pockets. At same time rotor makes 4 pockets so when the ball hits next diamond it hits it low and 13 pockets from 5 so it is around number 28.

But what if that ball was 7 ms/rotations slower?
The FF will detect it as 2 pockets so it will predict number 3.
But that ball will hit the diamond above number 5. This time it will be top part.
So the ball will fly and have impact with rotor somewhere around number 22.
This ball needs to reach #3. It is distanced 7 pockets to #3.
Previous scenario from 28 to zero is 5 pockets but because of sharper angle towards the rotor we can expect and less bouncing.
So possible mistake that diamond may create get reduced from 13 pockets close to zero.
Sure this all does not have to happen but it is most likely to happen. If you look scatter from diamond you will have this 13 pockets error. However, it wouldn’t be 13 pockets error from prediction. If you look scatter from rotor it is still not he best because of different angle when the ball hits rotor, but it should give better picture about possible advantage.

I did test comparing results if the FF predicts to the diamond and results if the FF looks through the diamond.

Yes, it is very encouraging. In line with most other comments on scatter, predicting dimond impact gives 25-30% return on bets to the player (I estimate just from looking at the graph posted). This is huge! During 3 minutes at the roulette table, you will have the same return on your money as you would during 3 average years on the stock markets… Whether they use a small ball or a large ball doesn’t change that. The peak of the distribution is shifted, of course, but the profitability of prediction is about equal in both cases.

One should be careful with drawing detailed conclusions from single system tests, but I see an interesting difference in the two graphs. The distribution with the small ball basically looks like a high plateau and a low plateau with steep walls inbetween. With the large ball on the other hand, there are no plateaus, but a triangular shape. The plateaus with the small ball would be preferable because of lesser variation in returns, there are more numbers that give 25-30% return.

It is difficult to speculate in the physics which causes this. Besides the correlation between size and weight, and the position of the center of gravity of the ball relative to the fret height, there is as already said in the thread, also the matter of the ball jumping in towards the rotor from the diamond impacted. That jumping movement should be diffrent if it hit the top or the middle of the diamond. But not so much because of that the impact angle changes. All of the top half of the diamond edge is actually always very close to frontal towards the incoming ball. If diamonds where round, the impact angles would vary very much with height of impact, so thank God they are not round! But the speed of the ball and its distance from the rotor at impact may matter more. High impact on the diamond means higher speed and slightly larger distance to travel to the rotor. Anyway, which such enormous odds in the advantage of the predictor, it isn’t necessary to bother too much about such details. Just identify the high plateau and place the bets on it!

By the way.. does anybody know what Bob's balls are made of..???
Sorry for the stupid question, but who's Bob???


Bob = Bob Gordon… he sells dvd’s of roulette spinss… a birds eye view of several hundred spins… large and small ball… tilted and not tilted etc… I think many of us on this forum use his dvd’s for practise with FF… it is just another tool in our ever increasing arsenal…


Ah, okey. Thanx.

I actually stumbled over some roulette video on youtube some time ago. I think it was meant as sample of a better high quality video for sale, because in the comments to it, several showed their interest in buying it. However, some passer by on youtube who probably has never heard of roulette prediction (and nothing in the comments explained WHY such a video could be of interest), didn’t see the point with such a video and wrote: “Seriously guys, GET A LIFE!”

There is something I do not understand with your graphs.
With large ball graph it looks as the ball stops most of the time on numbers right under the diamond.
If large ball hits diamond at zero.
Most likely it will hit rotor 7 pockets from there.
So the graph shows that there ball will most likely bounce back for that amount or jump across the rotor by 30 pockets.
Are you sure that you did not swap small and large ball data?
You should also consider separating spins with fast rotor.

Red= PJ chart with small ball possible advantage ~25%
White= the best FF can do, hits to rotor
Blue= for every hit to rotor applied all possibilities of scatter

Final result is possible advantage of ~15% based on 75% random scatter
15% may look ok but that is only theoretical maximum possible advantage.
If it was 100% I would in reality expect half of that. But on 15% it may be less then half.
Because less advantage we have it is harder to find where it is and real play is not always perfect selection.

As I explained before more suitable graph will be only scatter across the rotor.
Also PJ you should separate fast rotor spins and do not mix scatter from leveled and tilted wheel.

[quote=“Forester, post:17, topic:180”]There is something I do not understand with your graphs.
With large ball graph it looks as the ball stops most of the time on numbers right under the diamond.
If large ball hits diamond at zero.[/quote]

I hope the attached “X Chart” clarifies matters… I have not mixed large and small ball results…
I have not separated ‘fast’ and ‘slow’ rotor speeds… all the rotor speeds were reasonable (purely subjective of course)



I have not separated level and tilted wheel… I am not sure you are right about that for scatter… I don’t see that a small degree of tilt will make any noticeable or significant difference… although I can see that if the tilt is taken to extremes (which it is not) then tilt would have an obvious impact on scatter… this is in direct contrast to the effect of a small degree of tilt on ball departure from the track where the effect of tilt is blatantly obvious… (and a delight to see)…

Also Forester I will re do the same events for you only this time identifying impact with the rotor… but before I do that… can you explain or describe the impact with the rotor… do you mean when the ball is first struck by a fret or when the ball first crosses the line onto the rotor area?.. the results will obviously be different… so I will wait for you to clarify…